Making two separate games out of your live service game is making me want to play neither.

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Cyzax wrote:

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albert2006xp wrote:

The precedent is set that they'd rather just make a new one than work on this one and make it better. You're starting the new game on the precedent that will be replaced and die.

That is how all software development is... After a while the software become bloated, inefficient, cludgey, riddled with technical debt, and largely unknown to the current developers. That is the point where you redesign and make a new version more or less from scratch.

GGG would likely have preferred to keep the old software as developing a new version from scratch is expensive, but as so many other software companies found that it was not feasible and probably not even realistically possible.

That you don't like it is irrelevant. The above is pretty much a law of nature in the software world...

No, that's the point where you do a massive revamp and port into a new engine if you must, while keeping the game's content. There's games that have been working great for 20 years like WoW, yet they're vastly different now.

What Law in the Software World? Adobe just makes a new version of Photoshop, it doesn't make a whole other competing program that looks completely different then offers both. They evolve one software. Photoshop today looks recognizably like the one from decades ago in a lot of ways. Visual Studio today looks recognizably like Visual Studio, etc. Sure they evolved but they're clearly meant to be the same software.

GGG literally promised to do everything you're saying isn't possible in just continuing the old version of PoE with leagues anyway. The only thing is for some reason they are now making another competing game.

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albert2006xp wrote:

Adobe just makes a new version of Photoshop, it doesn't make a whole other competing program that looks completely different then offers both. They evolve one software. Photoshop today looks recognizably like the one from decades ago in a lot of ways. Visual Studio today looks recognizably like Visual Studio, etc. Sure they evolved but they're clearly meant to be the same software.

GGG literally promised to do everything you're saying isn't possible in just continuing the old version of PoE with leagues anyway. The only thing is for some reason they are now making another competing game.

GGG promised more of the same.

players threw money at them

then 5 years later they told everyone the funds an effort went into something else entirely.

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albert2006xp wrote:

No, that's the point where you do a massive revamp and port into a new engine if you must, while keeping the game's content. There's games that have been working great for 20 years like WoW, yet they're vastly different now.

Your statement conflicts with the reality of software development. Whether you can do what you say depends on the state of the software. PoE 1 is based on prototype software from a small startup. WoW was made by one of the largest game software developers in the world. The two are not comparable.

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albert2006xp wrote:

What Law in the Software World? Adobe just makes a new version of Photoshop, it doesn't make a whole other competing program that looks completely different then offers both. They evolve one software. Photoshop today looks recognizably like the one from decades ago in a lot of ways. Visual Studio today looks recognizably like Visual Studio, etc. Sure they evolved but they're clearly meant to be the same software.

There is a slight difference between a desktop app and a MMO game. 'Slight' = 'Enormous' if you didn't get it... Another invalid comparison.

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albert2006xp wrote:

GGG literally promised to do everything you're saying isn't possible in just continuing the old version of PoE with leagues anyway. The only thing is for some reason they are now making another competing game.

Yes... As software projects goes on, you realise that a lot of the assumptions you made in the start were wrong. At times that end up with realising a rewrite is the only way.

The three major things that are wrong with PoE 1 can't be fixed in PoE 1, because they're pretty much what PoE 1 is!
1. Zoom-zoom. This is bad gameplay. You can't see what you're doing, but just depend on massive overkill of everything. PoE 1 not a game, but a slightly interactive movie. GGG think it will be a better game without, and where players actually have to have skill, and FWIW I agree.
2. Itemisation. Too much item power, too many items dropping making balancing the game difficult/impossible. Items should matter, and they actually don't, because some items are way overpowered. To fix that would remove most of the crafting and influenced items.
3. Fluid gameplay and skill interaction. Can't do that today because of zoom-zoom and locked skill animations. Fundamental change that would invalidate a lot of the PoE 1 skills.
It can't be done... GGG obviously hoped it could, but have come to the realisation it couldn't. I'm fairly sure they didn't want to make PoE 2, but found they had no other realistic choice.

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exsea wrote:

GGG promised more of the same.

You'll actually get exactly that. When I saw the playthrough of PoE 2 act 3, I could recognise how PoE played 10 years ago.

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Cyzax wrote:

The three major things that are wrong with PoE 1 can't be fixed in PoE 1, because they're pretty much what PoE 1 is!
1. Zoom-zoom. This is bad gameplay. You can't see what you're doing, but just depend on massive overkill of everything. PoE 1 not a game, but a slightly interactive movie. GGG think it will be a better game without, and where players actually have to have skill, and FWIW I agree.
2. Itemisation. Too much item power, too many items dropping making balancing the game difficult/impossible. Items should matter, and they actually don't, because some items are way overpowered. To fix that would remove most of the crafting and influenced items.
3. Fluid gameplay and skill interaction. Can't do that today because of zoom-zoom and locked skill animations. Fundamental change that would invalidate a lot of the PoE 1 skills.
It can't be done... GGG obviously hoped it could, but have come to the realisation it couldn't. I'm fairly sure they didn't want to make PoE 2, but found they had no other realistic choice.

All of those problems were created by the people still influencing PoE2, The streamers on the panel have directly contributed to all of this by releasing builds that taught people to play this way and all of the meta strategies.

Do they seem unhappy? Heck no they can barely contain the smiles and laughter.

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SilentSymphony wrote:

All of those problems were created by the people still influencing PoE2, The streamers on the panel have directly contributed to all of this by releasing builds that taught people to play this way and all of the meta strategies.

They didn't create the problems... The problems are in the current PoE 1 mechanics.

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SilentSymphony wrote:

Do they seem unhappy? Heck no they can barely contain the smiles and laughter.

At a happy occasion like ExileCon... yes, people smile and laugh...

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albert2006xp wrote:

No, that's the point where you do a massive revamp and port into a new engine if you must, while keeping the game's content. There's games that have been working great for 20 years like WoW, yet they're vastly different now.

WoW isn't vastly different its almost identical, it had a fidelity facelift but the fundamentals of the game are identical with a few extra frameworks stuck on like dungeon queues etc. Infact WoW should be a huge argument for why starting afresh is a great idea or you end up with a game like WoW that evolves at a glacial pace.

Then you have studios like Bethesda that continue to make games where NPCs go cross eyed while talking to you and have the strangest facial expressions, bad inventory systems + buggy because they constantly try to iterate on the same architecture instead of doing a proper rebuild to improve their tools.

This is a long way of writing that you have no idea what you are talking about btw, there are frequently extremely significant upgrades that can only be made with an equally significant rebuild. Nor is their game competing with their own, in principle its there to suck up the few remaining weeks we have left.

I get it, you'd be happier if they kept to their original promise - just don't conflate that with the fact there are significant gains to be made by not adhering to it. Shackling your game to legacy architecture absolutely has a payment to it and GGG will already have significant development debt from shoehorning in so many league mechanics.

Also GGG created the games current speed meta not the streamers, streamers can't create what isn't there and you can't pretend for a second they don't know what you could do with a mageblood. In a way separating the two should please zoomers because its much more likely that PoE1's pacing won't get gutted.

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Cyzax wrote:

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SilentSymphony wrote:

Do they seem unhappy? Heck no they can barely contain the smiles and laughter.

At a happy occasion like ExileCon... yes, people smile and laugh...

despite all the debate, i am really happy for the latest exilecon

it really was full of fun and laughter.

i am really happy for GGG for it as ultimately we all love POE.


at least ggg isnt asking us if we dont have phones.

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Cyzax wrote:

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SilentSymphony wrote:

All of those problems were created by the people still influencing PoE2, The streamers on the panel have directly contributed to all of this by releasing builds that taught people to play this way and all of the meta strategies.

They didn't create the problems... The problems are in the current PoE 1 mechanics.

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SilentSymphony wrote:

Do they seem unhappy? Heck no they can barely contain the smiles and laughter.

At a happy occasion like ExileCon...

Happy occasion for who? Not for me but i guess my feelings on the matter don't matter? Am i not allowed to be unhappy about it or call some of this out? I beleived in chris wilson and pushed people to support him even when things started to shift, Now here we are and im mad as heck that my faith was for nothing.

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Cyzax wrote:

yes, people smile and laugh...

Good to know that you are aware of this phenomenon.

Safe Travels!

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exsea wrote:

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Cyzax wrote:

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SilentSymphony wrote:

Do they seem unhappy? Heck no they can barely contain the smiles and laughter.

At a happy occasion like ExileCon... yes, people smile and laugh...

despite all the debate, i am really happy for the latest exilecon

it really was full of fun and laughter.

i am really happy for GGG for it as ultimately we all love POE.


at least ggg isnt asking us if we dont have phones.

To be clear i don't want GGG to go down, I do want them to make it right though.

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SilentSymphony wrote:

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Cyzax wrote:

At a happy occasion like ExileCon...

Happy occasion for who? Not for me but i guess my feelings on the matter don't matter? Am i not allowed to be unhappy about it or call some of this out?

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SilentSymphony wrote:

To be clear i don't want GGG to go down, I do want them to make it right though.

If you're so eager to correct others, I will correct you too - you want them to make it right? no, you want them to do what you want.