Making two separate games out of your live service game is making me want to play neither.

Some people expecting GGG to never make new game which would be incredibly stupid.

Right now if Poe die the company die with it.

With two game if one die there is a chance for the company to survive.

Most company don't have a single product for a good reason.

"

GusTheCrocodile wrote:

"

albert2006xp wrote:

I was promised an update. I was promised ascendancies.

Taking a company's current plans for a project years from completion as an inviolable personal commitment to you is really not a great idea.

GGG had, for years, maintained the highest standard of reliability. When they did screw up ("Streamergate"), they explained and apologized for their errors. But you could take it as Gospel when they told you something, especially something BIG.

In 2019, we were told that PoE II would be a global upgrade to PoE, with the addition of a seven act campaign. For FOUR YEARS, GGG left that statement to stand. That was ALL we had to base FOUR YEARS of expectations on, and from prior experience with GGG, none of us had any reason to anticipate them almost completely deviating from what they led us to expect.

Was it a broken promise? Was it a lie? It was, at the very least, a complete violation of the trust we had put into GGG. Though we have no way to be sure when GGG changed their minds on what they wanted to do, from what we saw at Exilecon this weekend, it is clear they made that decision quite some time ago.

GGG allowed us to go on anticipating what they told us to expect for FOUR YEARS, then pulled the rug out from under us. A Four Year Lie.

I will never be able to trust GGG at their word again, and after defending and supporting them for most of twelve years, that hurts more than anything else that has come out of this announcement.
=-[.]-=

"

Warvald wrote:

Some people expecting GGG to never make new game which would be incredibly stupid.

Right now if Poe die the company die with it.

With two game if one die there is a chance for the company to survive.

Most company don't have a single product for a good reason.

If GGG wanted to make a new game, it shouldn't be in the same genre to cannibalize their old game. Look at LoL and Valorant. There's no problem there, but if they came out with LoL2 there would be a major problem.

They also shouldn't let us expect an update with ascendancies for four years only to make another ARPG. We invested our time in PoE. Yes invested, guy who disagrees. This is an investment into getting achievements in a game that is supposed to be here in 20 years. Just like I do my ranked in LoL every season since S1.


How are we supposed to trust to invest our time achieving things in this game when they're willing to just make another game that directly competes with it?

"

Raycheetah wrote:

"

GusTheCrocodile wrote:

"

albert2006xp wrote:

I was promised an update. I was promised ascendancies.

Taking a company's current plans for a project years from completion as an inviolable personal commitment to you is really not a great idea.

I will never be able to trust GGG at their word again, and after defending and supporting them for most of twelve years, that hurts more than anything else that has come out of this announcement.
=-[.]-=

Thank you for the demonstration of my point, I guess.

"

from prior experience with GGG, none of us had any reason to anticipate them almost completely deviating from what they led us to expect

From prior experience with GGG? What about prior experience with software development in general (or any other product development, really)? Plans change - that's pretty universal.

There's simply no need to "place trust in" reports of the features of an in-development game. What does doing that actually get you? It doesn't matter until the game is out anyway. Similarly, nobody told you to build "four years of expectations" based on one thing you decided to treat as a guarantee. There is literally no benefit in doing this to yourself!

You can have all the fun - all of it! - of thinking about new systems and feeling wonder about what the future could hold without thinking of it as set in stone and setting yourself up to be "hurt" because someone's art isn't what you want it to be. Just gotta play with ideas about the future as up in the air; as Some Cool Possibilities rather than How Things Will Be.

"

albert2006xp wrote:

Yes invested, guy who disagrees. This is an investment into getting achievements in a game that is supposed to be here in 20 years. Just like I do my ranked in LoL every season since S1.

...No, that's spending again, not investing. You spend the time, you get the achievement. You spend the time, you get the entertainment, the little chemical boosts in your brain. Transaction complete.

If you don't think spending your time on a particular entertainment product is worthwhile in itself, then don't do it, because that time is gone, it's not coming back with interest. Getting that achievement isn't setting you up for future benefit; you 'bought' it, now you have it, that's it.

"

GusTheCrocodile wrote:

If you don't think spending your time on a particular entertainment product is worthwhile in itself, then don't do it, because that time is gone, it's not coming back with interest. Getting that achievement isn't setting you up for future benefit; you 'bought' it, now you have it, that's it.

And what I'm saying is that I'm less likely to spend my time in a game where the company is literally trying to make a sequel and replace it while keeping it as some sort of OSRS. So far. It easily could go away the second it loses some players because now they have another to fall back on, so what confidence do I have to spend with this game? The value of fun of said achievements is compounding over time and predicated on them always being there in a game that's actively played by a lot of people.

"

GusTheCrocodile wrote:

Taking a company's current plans for a project years from completion as an inviolable personal commitment to you is really not a great idea.

From prior experience with GGG? What about prior experience with software development in general (or any other product development, really)? Plans change - that's pretty universal.

There's simply no need to "place trust in" reports of the features of an in-development game. What does doing that actually get you? It doesn't matter until the game is out anyway. Similarly, nobody told you to build "four years of expectations" based on one thing you decided to treat as a guarantee. There is literally no benefit in doing this to yourself!

You can have all the fun - all of it! - of thinking about new systems and feeling wonder about what the future could hold without thinking of it as set in stone and setting yourself up to be "hurt" because someone's art isn't what you want it to be. Just gotta play with ideas about the future as up in the air; as Some Cool Possibilities rather than How Things Will Be.

Okay, let's talk about this in terms which perhaps you will understand. In 2019, GGG established expectations for PoE II which they made no attempt to change over the next four years (fully a third of my entire time playing PoE). Exilecon 2019 was a promotional event, an ad campaign, if you will. I (and, I expect, many other players) supported GGG with actual money over that time, hundreds of dollars in my case and my wife's, predicated on the expectation that the product would be changed as advertised.

Now, it's not so much about the money, except in a peripheral sense that it was used in a way with an outcome I do not favor, as it is about trust. You say that I shouldn't have expected plans to remain the same. If that was what GGG advertised and promoted, only to drop a big, fat "Surprise, sucker!" on us, I would argue that, no, they don't get a pass. If your plans change, disclose that. You don't have to reveal any trade secrets, just admit that some things you announced aren't going to be possible. Don't come across at the reveal like this was some triumph; real people who have paid real money are being negatively affected by this decision.

And whether or not it might theoretically be legally actionable, it was a shit move on GGG's part, and unworthy of the reputation they have been careful to build up over the years.

Sorry about the sloppy quote. ='[.]'=
#FourYearLie

"

Raycheetah wrote:

Okay, let's talk about this in terms which perhaps you will understand.

Thank you for your concern but I assure you, a disagreement is not the same as a lack of understanding.

"

Raycheetah wrote:

In 2019, GGG established expectations for PoE II which they made no attempt to change over the next four years (fully a third of my entire time playing PoE). Exilecon 2019 was a promotional event, an ad campaign, if you will. I (and, I expect, many other players) supported GGG with actual money over that time, hundreds of dollars in my case and my wife's, predicated on the expectation that the product would be changed as advertised.

I trust you're not actually saying you misunderstood what you were buying with that money. You haven't been gradually pre-purchasing a specific POE2 design, you've been buying cosmetic items for POE. You got what you paid for, yes?

"

Raycheetah wrote:

If your plans change, disclose that.

...They just did. They're telling people about the changes well before release. The game isn't even in beta for another year.

"Path of Exile 2 is a new campaign accessed through the same program"
"Oh, that's interesting"
"Path of Exile 2 is now a standalone game"
"Oh, okay"

How much time do we really need to process the news that a videogame is getting a sequel? It's a matter of install directories, hardly lifechanging stuff.

"

GusTheCrocodile wrote:

"

Raycheetah wrote:

In 2019, GGG established expectations for PoE II which they made no attempt to change over the next four years (fully a third of my entire time playing PoE). Exilecon 2019 was a promotional event, an ad campaign, if you will. I (and, I expect, many other players) supported GGG with actual money over that time, hundreds of dollars in my case and my wife's, predicated on the expectation that the product would be changed as advertised.

I trust you're not actually saying you misunderstood what you were buying with that money. You haven't been gradually pre-purchasing a specific POE2 design, you've been buying cosmetic items for POE. You got what you paid for, yes?

So, what I'm taking away from this is that the term "Supporter Pack" is also misleading? My intent to support the game is meaningless, and all I pay for is some pixels?

Noted. ='[.]'=

"

Raycheetah wrote:

Was it a broken promise? Was it a lie? It was, at the very least, a complete violation of the trust we had put into GGG.

This is audience entitlement to a massive degree, they could have decided this in the last year for all we know or even more recently.

The issue with long term development is things change you can't take what they say as set in stone because it isn't and its simply naive to think otherwise. Does that mean sometimes players are disappointed? Of course but what doesn't?

I'm disappointed every patch where Chris says nobody plays melee so we can't be bothered to make it better - that doesn't violate my trust though because i'd have to be an idiot to "trust" them with balance - they will do what they want because I have no control over otherwise.

When it comes down to it infact the world in general would be better if people realised that marketing is intended to make customers aware of something and sell it to them nothing more. They aren't your friends and they can't be trusted the only reason you are told about releases ahead of time is to put it in your headspace while they work on it so they have an easier time selling it to you in the future.

Supporter packs are no different, one of the wisest (or cynical) things that Chris has said over the years is that you have to offer ways for different clientele to pay different prices or your wasting opportunity - this is the heart of their F2P model, you have people who play lightly with 20$ of stash tabs all the way to people who play a collection game with supporter badges to fulfil their completionist tendencies. Its smart and it works no two ways about it.

But supporter packs haven't had anything to do with support since their early days, you may as well call Coca Cola a supporter beverage they just don't give you a forum badge for doing so.

"

Raycheetah wrote:

So, what I'm taking away from this is that the term "Supporter Pack" is also misleading? My intent to support the game is meaningless, and all I pay for is some pixels?

The term supporter pack isn't misleading, it's entirely accurate. All purchases of anything, from any company, support the company.

When I buy a loaf of bread from the bakery down the road, I am supporting them - they need money to operate; to pay their workers and other costs. At the same time, "all I pay for" is a loaf of bread. Those aren't contradictory statements.