Im legit xxxtempted to reply to everyone right now. But I'm super burnt out, must have written over 3 full size articles which I could get paid for within the last 2 hours lol.
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Posted byallionuson Mar 3, 2020, 9:44:26 AM
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Im legit xxxtempted to reply to everyone right now. But I'm super burnt out, must have written over 3 full size articles which I could get paid for within the last 2 hours lol.
do it and get comments on how lame u are lol.
"Now all that's left is for you getting on your knees."
if you know thanks me:) i'm dying to find out x'D
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Posted bysatanttinon Mar 3, 2020, 9:48:04 AM
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No theyre not. Its hard to value items and sometimes we just cant be bothered with the hassle. Again my example with my tabulas, got 2 or 3 in the stash (along with everything else ive deemed valuable enough to pick up and keep) but just the tabulas to make an example. So i got at least 2, if its easy and simple im putting them up all the way until theyre 1alch. Its enough that there are 50 people with 2 tabulas and thats another 100 tabulas up on the market. But fact is there is probably 1000s of tabulas laying about in peoples stashes. Same with every other thing common enough that we find a few every league..pretty much anything but the rarest of items. While some people would like am AH despite whatever limitations would have to be put in place there is also people like me who appreciates the current system as the lesser evil and enjoys that in PoE trade is unrestricted. You can buy, use and resell the same items sometimes even for profit. And new players come both as players like you and like me
Tabulas is literally the worst example you can use, you can right now vendor both your tabulas for 2 divines and cash in. And that's valid for every single gear in the game, trash gear doesn't completely disappear (except the billions that are left on the ground by your filter) they became alterations and alchemys which in turn can become good items.
The problem of PoE trade is that it has the worst possible restriction a game can have, it restricts you by frustrating you, by making you literally lose your time. And time is your most valuable being in the world, it's the only truly limited currency you have.
Before talking shit about economy or whatever, players of a game should be able to dosage if something that is there with the sole purpose of being unfun has actually a reason to exist, it has to acomplish something. So i ask you, what the current trade interaction achieves that could not be be achieved on a less painful way for the players?
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Posted byMortyxon Mar 3, 2020, 10:27:54 AM
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This is absurd. "making AH is too hard", are you kidding me? of course you think you are not, but you really are. "AH is a bad idea". You name dropped games, but didn't name drop the actual issue that "ingame Auction houses always cause".
"to limit the market, so everyone doesn't have access to everything all the time. And that's a GOOD thing." WTH is this dude lol? GOOD THING!! But HOW? You need to make a case, rather than just assumptions.
To your edit - I never said their WHOLE BUSINESS MODEL is predatory. I never criticized Vanity MTX. My ENTIRE FOCUS is the STORAGE, and the TRADE "system".
I'm sorry if I offended you.
I'm serious, though; if you can't see (understand) why trading needs to be somewhat limited in a genre like this, you'll never understand why GGG have made the choices they've made.
A limited trading system gives value to playing the game and progressing within the game.
A history lesson for you: GGG never intended for trading to be as easy as it is today. Back in the days, they had forum-based trading with a closed API. PoE.xyz happended, and started pinging/indexing the website way too much. GGG "caved" and released the API, letting PoE.xyz get direct trading information. The system we have today, is nothing more than a compromise.
Now, CAN GGG make an automated system in form of an AH? Of course they CAN. But they don't WANT to, because it goes against their vision of the GAME. The current system isn't here to make TRADE better, it is here to make the GAME better. Preserve PLAYING.
While the game is balanced around certain amounts of trading, you CAN do EVERYTHING in the game without trading. If trading becomes automated, with access to everything all the time - without limitations, the AH WILL become the center of everything, including balance. GGG have already told us that if they'd made trading/access to gear greater than it is today, they would be forced to alter drop rates.
D3 launched with an AH. It WAS the center of everything. Playing the game was so devalued, that AH was more or less required for 90% of the players. Players DEMANDED change, because of the AH's position was too strong, Blizzard caved - overreacted - and removed everything. What they shoul've done, is implementing some kind of limitations.
Look, no one in their right mind would call the current trading system in PoE "good". It isn't. It's quite bad, in fact. But it DOES preserve some key elements in the game. There are other forms of limitations that could work, but ALL of them would raise anger among certain players.
Automatic, limitless trading will NEVER happen in PoE. Never. They've been pretty clear on that. I understand you don't agree, but if you don't even UNDERSTAND, I don't know what to tell you.
Sometimes, just sometimes, you should really consider adapting to the world, instead of demanding that the world adapts to you.
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Posted byPhrazzon Mar 3, 2020, 10:54:46 AM
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No theyre not. Its hard to value items and sometimes we just cant be bothered with the hassle. Again my example with my tabulas, got 2 or 3 in the stash (along with everything else ive deemed valuable enough to pick up and keep) but just the tabulas to make an example. So i got at least 2, if its easy and simple im putting them up all the way until theyre 1alch. Its enough that there are 50 people with 2 tabulas and thats another 100 tabulas up on the market. But fact is there is probably 1000s of tabulas laying about in peoples stashes. Same with every other thing common enough that we find a few every league..pretty much anything but the rarest of items. While some people would like am AH despite whatever limitations would have to be put in place there is also people like me who appreciates the current system as the lesser evil and enjoys that in PoE trade is unrestricted. You can buy, use and resell the same items sometimes even for profit. And new players come both as players like you and like me
Tabulas is literally the worst example you can use, you can right now vendor both your tabulas for 2 divines and cash in. And that's valid for every single gear in the game, trash gear doesn't completely disappear (except the billions that are left on the ground by your filter) they became alterations and alchemys which in turn can become good items.
The problem of PoE trade is that it has the worst possible restriction a game can have, it restricts you by frustrating you, by making you literally lose your time. And time is your most valuable being in the world, it's the only truly limited currency you have.
Before talking shit about economy or whatever, players of a game should be able to dosage if something that is there with the sole purpose of being unfun has actually a reason to exist, it has to acomplish something. So i ask you, what the current trade interaction achieves that could not be be achieved on a less painful way for the players?
i didnt actually know they vendor for a divine haha
so yes, bad example. replace with any other item you might find that you find worth to keep (except extremely rare and valuable item, if its unlikely several people have something comparable it would still be valuable with an AH)
for me personally, i dont think its the worst possible restriction. i think its the best possible restriction. anything else, like lowered droprates, BoE, BoP, time gates would probably make me quit the game. the economy and being able to buy, use and sell is part of what i enjoy in PoE. and you just cant have an unrestriced AH with the current drop rates and maintain the economy
and again, it rewards knowledge, adding another layer of complexity. understand the game and there is less items stuck in your stash
i do not feel your frustration. most of my trades are pretty hassle free. it takes a bit of time to find exactly what you want sometimes but i consider it part of the game
so again, something is bad because you hate it or it frustrates you. it might not be the experience someone else is having. and there is alot of people playing PoE who likes the current system alot and the game grew to where it is partly because of that
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Posted byNidalon Mar 3, 2020, 11:05:22 AM
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No theyre not. Its hard to value items and sometimes we just cant be bothered with the hassle. Again my example with my tabulas, got 2 or 3 in the stash (along with everything else ive deemed valuable enough to pick up and keep) but just the tabulas to make an example. So i got at least 2, if its easy and simple im putting them up all the way until theyre 1alch. Its enough that there are 50 people with 2 tabulas and thats another 100 tabulas up on the market. But fact is there is probably 1000s of tabulas laying about in peoples stashes. Same with every other thing common enough that we find a few every league..pretty much anything but the rarest of items. While some people would like am AH despite whatever limitations would have to be put in place there is also people like me who appreciates the current system as the lesser evil and enjoys that in PoE trade is unrestricted. You can buy, use and resell the same items sometimes even for profit. And new players come both as players like you and like me
Tabulas is literally the worst example you can use, you can right now vendor both your tabulas for 2 divines and cash in. And that's valid for every single gear in the game, trash gear doesn't completely disappear (except the billions that are left on the ground by your filter) they became alterations and alchemys which in turn can become good items.
The problem of PoE trade is that it has the worst possible restriction a game can have, it restricts you by frustrating you, by making you literally lose your time. And time is your most valuable being in the world, it's the only truly limited currency you have.
Before talking shit about economy or whatever, players of a game should be able to dosage if something that is there with the sole purpose of being unfun has actually a reason to exist, it has to acomplish something. So i ask you, what the current trade interaction achieves that could not be be achieved on a less painful way for the players?
i didnt actually know they vendor for a divine haha
so yes, bad example. replace with any other item you might find that you find worth to keep (except extremely rare and valuable item, if its unlikely several people have something comparable it would still be valuable with an AH)
for me personally, i dont think its the worst possible restriction. i think its the best possible restriction. anything else, like lowered droprates, BoE, BoP, time gates would probably make me quit the game. the economy and being able to buy, use and sell is part of what i enjoy in PoE. and you just cant have an unrestriced AH with the current drop rates and maintain the economy
and again, it rewards knowledge, adding another layer of complexity. understand the game and there is less items stuck in your stash
i do not feel your frustration. most of my trades are pretty hassle free. it takes a bit of time to find exactly what you want sometimes but i consider it part of the game
so again, something is bad because you hate it or it frustrates you. it might not be the experience someone else is having. and there is alot of people playing PoE who likes the current system alot and the game grew to where it is partly because of that
Oh don`t get me wrong,buying gear in this game is the easiest thing that there is, you set the parameters you like, if there is none in the market you put a live search and it`s done.
Now try to fossil craft something or essence craft or beast craft something, where you have to whisper thousand of players that have 1-5 items, where half ignores you and the other half already sold it. And i am not talking about the cheapest ones, even if you start in the middle price this is what happens. You will end up doing that for at least half an hour to get 30-40 fossils that you will burn in craft in less than a minute.
So this makes you wonder, was that hours of trading for the materials to craft worth the joy of the seconds of crafting? Most times the conclusion will be NOPE and in this case you will give up completely in two of the main pillars of this game (crafting and trading). If my build requires something that is not meta (does not exist in the market) i simple consider that piece of gear gone from my plans, if it is meta i simple grind currency and buy it, easy and simple.
The question remains is the current trade interaction slowing my character growth down? Am i going to not use trade and hope the exact item i need to magically drop while i ignore the dozens of great items that don`t fit my build that are dropping/being crafted by me? And the answer is Nope, all the current trade is accomplishing is removing me from one of the game central mechanics (crafting).
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Posted byMortyxon Mar 3, 2020, 11:19:58 AM
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This is absurd. "making AH is too hard", are you kidding me? of course you think you are not, but you really are. "AH is a bad idea". You name dropped games, but didn't name drop the actual issue that "ingame Auction houses always cause".
"to limit the market, so everyone doesn't have access to everything all the time. And that's a GOOD thing." WTH is this dude lol? GOOD THING!! But HOW? You need to make a case, rather than just assumptions.
To your edit - I never said their WHOLE BUSINESS MODEL is predatory. I never criticized Vanity MTX. My ENTIRE FOCUS is the STORAGE, and the TRADE "system".
I'm sorry if I offended you.
I'm serious, though; if you can't see (understand) why trading needs to be somewhat limited in a genre like this, you'll never understand why GGG have made the choices they've made.
A limited trading system gives value to playing the game and progressing within the game.
A history lesson for you: GGG never intended for trading to be as easy as it is today. Back in the days, they had forum-based trading with a closed API. PoE.xyz happended, and started pinging/indexing the website way too much. GGG "caved" and released the API, letting PoE.xyz get direct trading information. The system we have today, is nothing more than a compromise.
Now, CAN GGG make an automated system in form of an AH? Of course they CAN. But they don't WANT to, because it goes against their vision of the GAME. The current system isn't here to make TRADE better, it is here to make the GAME better. Preserve PLAYING.
While the game is balanced around certain amounts of trading, you CAN do EVERYTHING in the game without trading. If trading becomes automated, with access to everything all the time - without limitations, the AH WILL become the center of everything, including balance. GGG have already told us that if they'd made trading/access to gear greater than it is today, they would be forced to alter drop rates.
D3 launched with an AH. It WAS the center of everything. Playing the game was so devalued, that AH was more or less required for 90% of the players. Players DEMANDED change, because of the AH's position was too strong, Blizzard caved - overreacted - and removed everything. What they shoul've done, is implementing some kind of limitations.
Look, no one in their right mind would call the current trading system in PoE "good". It isn't. It's quite bad, in fact. But it DOES preserve some key elements in the game. There are other forms of limitations that could work, but ALL of them would raise anger among certain players.
Automatic, limitless trading will NEVER happen in PoE. Never. They've been pretty clear on that. I understand you don't agree, but if you don't even UNDERSTAND, I don't know what to tell you.
Hi that's fine. No I'm not offended.
I was just using caps on words which I wanted to emphasize. Not as an expression of offense.
"A limited trading system gives value to playing the game and progressing within the game." -Many people here have overemphasized the importance of "trade speed" in giving value to playing the game. But this is just not true. Trading is INSANELY QUICK Today as well. Instead of taking 5 seconds to buy an item in AH, it just takes 1 minute in today's system to buy the same item. People won't sell more, or less items if AH is implemented. They will sell The items they have. That's it. New items don't appear suddenly for people to sell.
Faster trading will not hurt the "experience of the game". It actually makes it way better. Right now when a person wants to do a craft, (like fossil,essence,alt/aug/reg, etc) without going through the act of collecting the items by themselves, they have to sometimes go through HUNDREDS OF WHISPERS, before they manage to get enough responses from the sellers (a large number of whom are afk, or price fixing to later flip the currency at higher prices).
This is not "fun" in any way. The whole chat window turns purple(HORRIBLE CHAT COLOR TBH LOL) and after spamming 20 people for 1 stack of some item, you get an invite from ONE of them, and then you have to scroll back through all the people you whispered, to find the guy who responded, then find what you were buying from them and how much you were paying them. And THIS happens so many times that it can take SEVERAL HOURS, Just to be able to to the desired craft.
The problem is TOO MANY HOOPS. And ALL because it sells STORAGE MTX. THAT'S IT!!!!
The problem is also more than just how much or less fun it will become. It's Pay2Win right now. Because access to Storage, which translates DIRECTLY to how many items you can sell, how fast you can modify the rates, how fast it becomes visible. THEY SELL ADVANTAGE. And THAT is the biggest hypocrisy of a game who's creators pride themselves on "NOT Falling low enough to using PAY2WIN just for money"...
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Posted byallionuson Mar 4, 2020, 3:17:01 AM
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We know peoples stashes are full of items we think got value or the lootfilter deemed valuable but we dont know how to price or not worth the hassle to list
We know making trade easy, simple and quick will have people putting all of these things up for sale, increasing supply. we know when supply increases value decreases and demand eventually saturates. and we know if you want the items to keep value, they have to be made more rare so they get listed less
you can go ahead and tell me why more items wouldnt get posted or why more of them wouldnt decrease their value
and then we also have a great practical example in D3 that tried and failed.
it wasnt RMAH that caused the problem. it was the fact that for items to have value and be able to be sold for ingame or cash. they had to be very very rare
or they get worthless when hundreds or thousands of players sell them
"We know peoples stashes are full of items we think got value or the lootfilter deemed valuable but we dont know how to price or not worth the hassle to list
We know making trade easy, simple and quick will have people putting all of these things up for sale, increasing supply."
This makes no sense. No we don't "know" that making the trade "easy" will make people throw everything for sale. PEOPLE ALREADY DO THAT, bro!!!! There's already tools like poeprices, trademacro, and other tools to price items, some even help auto price, AND auto list ENTIRE LEAGUE STASHES. You are making a hypothetical for the AH as a negative thing, which ALREADY EXISTS. People will need to sell LESS items in an AH, because they know they'll get a better response, and make currency faster. The CURRENT system is the one which rewards just blindshooting all possible items into trade hoping something hits.
Edit: Unless it is being forgotten - Current system REWARDS Behaviors like Sniping, Flipping, Price fixing. Things that FAIL in a regular AH. Yet somehow that seems irrelevant from the looks of the responses :v
Last edited by allionus on Mar 4, 2020, 3:43:23 AM
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Posted byallionuson Mar 4, 2020, 3:39:59 AM
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Im legit xxxtempted to reply to everyone right now. But I'm super burnt out, must have written over 3 full size articles which I could get paid for within the last 2 hours lol.
do it and get comments on how lame u are lol.
My memes are straight from 2420. You wish u was me!!!!!
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Posted byallionuson Mar 4, 2020, 3:44:12 AM
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We know peoples stashes are full of items we think got value or the lootfilter deemed valuable but we dont know how to price or not worth the hassle to list
We know making trade easy, simple and quick will have people putting all of these things up for sale, increasing supply. we know when supply increases value decreases and demand eventually saturates. and we know if you want the items to keep value, they have to be made more rare so they get listed less
you can go ahead and tell me why more items wouldnt get posted or why more of them wouldnt decrease their value
and then we also have a great practical example in D3 that tried and failed.
it wasnt RMAH that caused the problem. it was the fact that for items to have value and be able to be sold for ingame or cash. they had to be very very rare
or they get worthless when hundreds or thousands of players sell them
"We know peoples stashes are full of items we think got value or the lootfilter deemed valuable but we dont know how to price or not worth the hassle to list
We know making trade easy, simple and quick will have people putting all of these things up for sale, increasing supply."
This makes no sense. No we don't "know" that making the trade "easy" will make people throw everything for sale. PEOPLE ALREADY DO THAT, bro!!!! There's already tools like poeprices, trademacro, and other tools to price items, some even help auto price, AND auto list ENTIRE LEAGUE STASHES. You are making a hypothetical for the AH as a negative thing, which ALREADY EXISTS. People will need to sell LESS items in an AH, because they know they'll get a better response, and make currency faster. The CURRENT system is the one which rewards just blindshooting all possible items into trade hoping something hits.
Edit: Unless it is being forgotten - Current system REWARDS Behaviors like Sniping, Flipping, Price fixing. Things that FAIL in a regular AH. Yet somehow that seems irrelevant from the looks of the responses :v
No they do not, my stashes are full, my guilds stash is full, my friends stashes are full, im sure there are other people here on the forum whos stashes are full and alot of us have bought stash space because, you got it, stashes are full. i do not feel like price checking 100+ items or quit mapping to invite, trade, check and sell. takes too much time (wich is the point, items get stuck in storage instead of hitting the market). even streamers, full time players with the tools you mention struggle sometime to correctly price items. if GGG makes some money on stashes, good for them. you have the option of getting better at valuing items or be more restricive on what you keep instead
We have an actual example of an unrestricted AH being done
We have GGG coming out and stating it
We can see every other game having restrictions on their items
and theoretically it makes perfect sense, practically what you could have expected happened when they tried
what doesnt make sense is people selling less with an AH, if they have a better response to one sell, sell again and you will not make currency faster because when the hassle to price, invite, quit maps, trade and sell isnt there, and there is 100 000 players if its worthwhile to sell its needs to be rare and good enough that the majority wont find one and put it up next to yours until its not worth to sell anymore. while super rare items will still remain valuable the average player makes less because they no longer make currency on items
Not everything about the current system is great but sniping, price fixxing, flipping, scamming is just people dealing with people. just like in any economy
Again, some people might prefer the game with AH and lower droprates, or restriction but there is no AH without consequenses and we are many players that prefer the current system
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Posted byNidalon Mar 4, 2020, 4:32:02 AM
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