The Plague that is GGG's "Trade" system. & the Predatory dance feeding its lowkey P2W mechanism.

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allionus wrote:

Im legit xxxtempted to reply to everyone right now. But I'm super burnt out, must have written over 3 full size articles which I could get paid for within the last 2 hours lol.

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Nidal wrote:

No theyre not. Its hard to value items and sometimes we just cant be bothered with the hassle. Again my example with my tabulas, got 2 or 3 in the stash (along with everything else ive deemed valuable enough to pick up and keep) but just the tabulas to make an example. So i got at least 2, if its easy and simple im putting them up all the way until theyre 1alch. Its enough that there are 50 people with 2 tabulas and thats another 100 tabulas up on the market. But fact is there is probably 1000s of tabulas laying about in peoples stashes. Same with every other thing common enough that we find a few every league..pretty much anything but the rarest of items. While some people would like am AH despite whatever limitations would have to be put in place there is also people like me who appreciates the current system as the lesser evil and enjoys that in PoE trade is unrestricted. You can buy, use and resell the same items sometimes even for profit. And new players come both as players like you and like me

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allionus wrote:

This is absurd. "making AH is too hard", are you kidding me? of course you think you are not, but you really are. "AH is a bad idea". You name dropped games, but didn't name drop the actual issue that "ingame Auction houses always cause".

"to limit the market, so everyone doesn't have access to everything all the time. And that's a GOOD thing." WTH is this dude lol? GOOD THING!! But HOW? You need to make a case, rather than just assumptions.

To your edit - I never said their WHOLE BUSINESS MODEL is predatory. I never criticized Vanity MTX. My ENTIRE FOCUS is the STORAGE, and the TRADE "system".

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Mortyx wrote:

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Nidal wrote:

No theyre not. Its hard to value items and sometimes we just cant be bothered with the hassle. Again my example with my tabulas, got 2 or 3 in the stash (along with everything else ive deemed valuable enough to pick up and keep) but just the tabulas to make an example. So i got at least 2, if its easy and simple im putting them up all the way until theyre 1alch. Its enough that there are 50 people with 2 tabulas and thats another 100 tabulas up on the market. But fact is there is probably 1000s of tabulas laying about in peoples stashes. Same with every other thing common enough that we find a few every league..pretty much anything but the rarest of items. While some people would like am AH despite whatever limitations would have to be put in place there is also people like me who appreciates the current system as the lesser evil and enjoys that in PoE trade is unrestricted. You can buy, use and resell the same items sometimes even for profit. And new players come both as players like you and like me

Tabulas is literally the worst example you can use, you can right now vendor both your tabulas for 2 divines and cash in. And that's valid for every single gear in the game, trash gear doesn't completely disappear (except the billions that are left on the ground by your filter) they became alterations and alchemys which in turn can become good items.

The problem of PoE trade is that it has the worst possible restriction a game can have, it restricts you by frustrating you, by making you literally lose your time. And time is your most valuable being in the world, it's the only truly limited currency you have.

Before talking shit about economy or whatever, players of a game should be able to dosage if something that is there with the sole purpose of being unfun has actually a reason to exist, it has to acomplish something. So i ask you, what the current trade interaction achieves that could not be be achieved on a less painful way for the players?

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Nidal wrote:

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Mortyx wrote:

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Nidal wrote:

No theyre not. Its hard to value items and sometimes we just cant be bothered with the hassle. Again my example with my tabulas, got 2 or 3 in the stash (along with everything else ive deemed valuable enough to pick up and keep) but just the tabulas to make an example. So i got at least 2, if its easy and simple im putting them up all the way until theyre 1alch. Its enough that there are 50 people with 2 tabulas and thats another 100 tabulas up on the market. But fact is there is probably 1000s of tabulas laying about in peoples stashes. Same with every other thing common enough that we find a few every league..pretty much anything but the rarest of items. While some people would like am AH despite whatever limitations would have to be put in place there is also people like me who appreciates the current system as the lesser evil and enjoys that in PoE trade is unrestricted. You can buy, use and resell the same items sometimes even for profit. And new players come both as players like you and like me

Tabulas is literally the worst example you can use, you can right now vendor both your tabulas for 2 divines and cash in. And that's valid for every single gear in the game, trash gear doesn't completely disappear (except the billions that are left on the ground by your filter) they became alterations and alchemys which in turn can become good items.

The problem of PoE trade is that it has the worst possible restriction a game can have, it restricts you by frustrating you, by making you literally lose your time. And time is your most valuable being in the world, it's the only truly limited currency you have.

Before talking shit about economy or whatever, players of a game should be able to dosage if something that is there with the sole purpose of being unfun has actually a reason to exist, it has to acomplish something. So i ask you, what the current trade interaction achieves that could not be be achieved on a less painful way for the players?

i didnt actually know they vendor for a divine haha
so yes, bad example. replace with any other item you might find that you find worth to keep (except extremely rare and valuable item, if its unlikely several people have something comparable it would still be valuable with an AH)

for me personally, i dont think its the worst possible restriction. i think its the best possible restriction. anything else, like lowered droprates, BoE, BoP, time gates would probably make me quit the game. the economy and being able to buy, use and sell is part of what i enjoy in PoE. and you just cant have an unrestriced AH with the current drop rates and maintain the economy

and again, it rewards knowledge, adding another layer of complexity. understand the game and there is less items stuck in your stash

i do not feel your frustration. most of my trades are pretty hassle free. it takes a bit of time to find exactly what you want sometimes but i consider it part of the game

so again, something is bad because you hate it or it frustrates you. it might not be the experience someone else is having. and there is alot of people playing PoE who likes the current system alot and the game grew to where it is partly because of that

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Phrazz wrote:

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allionus wrote:

This is absurd. "making AH is too hard", are you kidding me? of course you think you are not, but you really are. "AH is a bad idea". You name dropped games, but didn't name drop the actual issue that "ingame Auction houses always cause".

"to limit the market, so everyone doesn't have access to everything all the time. And that's a GOOD thing." WTH is this dude lol? GOOD THING!! But HOW? You need to make a case, rather than just assumptions.

To your edit - I never said their WHOLE BUSINESS MODEL is predatory. I never criticized Vanity MTX. My ENTIRE FOCUS is the STORAGE, and the TRADE "system".

I'm sorry if I offended you.

I'm serious, though; if you can't see (understand) why trading needs to be somewhat limited in a genre like this, you'll never understand why GGG have made the choices they've made.

A limited trading system gives value to playing the game and progressing within the game.

A history lesson for you: GGG never intended for trading to be as easy as it is today. Back in the days, they had forum-based trading with a closed API. PoE.xyz happended, and started pinging/indexing the website way too much. GGG "caved" and released the API, letting PoE.xyz get direct trading information. The system we have today, is nothing more than a compromise.

Now, CAN GGG make an automated system in form of an AH? Of course they CAN. But they don't WANT to, because it goes against their vision of the GAME. The current system isn't here to make TRADE better, it is here to make the GAME better. Preserve PLAYING.

While the game is balanced around certain amounts of trading, you CAN do EVERYTHING in the game without trading. If trading becomes automated, with access to everything all the time - without limitations, the AH WILL become the center of everything, including balance. GGG have already told us that if they'd made trading/access to gear greater than it is today, they would be forced to alter drop rates.

D3 launched with an AH. It WAS the center of everything. Playing the game was so devalued, that AH was more or less required for 90% of the players. Players DEMANDED change, because of the AH's position was too strong, Blizzard caved - overreacted - and removed everything. What they shoul've done, is implementing some kind of limitations.

Look, no one in their right mind would call the current trading system in PoE "good". It isn't. It's quite bad, in fact. But it DOES preserve some key elements in the game. There are other forms of limitations that could work, but ALL of them would raise anger among certain players.

Automatic, limitless trading will NEVER happen in PoE. Never. They've been pretty clear on that. I understand you don't agree, but if you don't even UNDERSTAND, I don't know what to tell you.

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Nidal wrote:

We know peoples stashes are full of items we think got value or the lootfilter deemed valuable but we dont know how to price or not worth the hassle to list
We know making trade easy, simple and quick will have people putting all of these things up for sale, increasing supply. we know when supply increases value decreases and demand eventually saturates. and we know if you want the items to keep value, they have to be made more rare so they get listed less
you can go ahead and tell me why more items wouldnt get posted or why more of them wouldnt decrease their value

and then we also have a great practical example in D3 that tried and failed.
it wasnt RMAH that caused the problem. it was the fact that for items to have value and be able to be sold for ingame or cash. they had to be very very rare
or they get worthless when hundreds or thousands of players sell them

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satanttin wrote:

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allionus wrote:

Im legit xxxtempted to reply to everyone right now. But I'm super burnt out, must have written over 3 full size articles which I could get paid for within the last 2 hours lol.

do it and get comments on how lame u are lol.

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allionus wrote:

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Nidal wrote:

We know peoples stashes are full of items we think got value or the lootfilter deemed valuable but we dont know how to price or not worth the hassle to list
We know making trade easy, simple and quick will have people putting all of these things up for sale, increasing supply. we know when supply increases value decreases and demand eventually saturates. and we know if you want the items to keep value, they have to be made more rare so they get listed less
you can go ahead and tell me why more items wouldnt get posted or why more of them wouldnt decrease their value

and then we also have a great practical example in D3 that tried and failed.
it wasnt RMAH that caused the problem. it was the fact that for items to have value and be able to be sold for ingame or cash. they had to be very very rare
or they get worthless when hundreds or thousands of players sell them

"We know peoples stashes are full of items we think got value or the lootfilter deemed valuable but we dont know how to price or not worth the hassle to list
We know making trade easy, simple and quick will have people putting all of these things up for sale, increasing supply."

This makes no sense. No we don't "know" that making the trade "easy" will make people throw everything for sale. PEOPLE ALREADY DO THAT, bro!!!! There's already tools like poeprices, trademacro, and other tools to price items, some even help auto price, AND auto list ENTIRE LEAGUE STASHES. You are making a hypothetical for the AH as a negative thing, which ALREADY EXISTS. People will need to sell LESS items in an AH, because they know they'll get a better response, and make currency faster. The CURRENT system is the one which rewards just blindshooting all possible items into trade hoping something hits.



Edit: Unless it is being forgotten - Current system REWARDS Behaviors like Sniping, Flipping, Price fixing. Things that FAIL in a regular AH. Yet somehow that seems irrelevant from the looks of the responses :v