Haven't really ever commented on lab, but I hate it.

"

Fruz wrote:

"

Pyrokar wrote:

"

.....
I was answering a quote ( you know, I quoted, and then I bolded the part that I was refering to ).
You seem to just take it out of the context and try to make me say something that I didn't.
Please don't.
Please list those things tho.

It's too many to list so i am gonna say the most obvious one. You can't choose another characters starting point as scion without her ascendancy.
About the context thing, you did say that, what did i misunderstand?

There is nothing about the content in PoE that you cannot do/beat without this extra starting point.
If you cannot find ascendancy elements that you cannot beat the content without, then it's not really relevant to the "optional or not" argument.
You apparently misunderstood the fact that, I was just giving a counter example, answering to the bolded part that I was mentioning.

Ah, i see. Sorry if i misunderstood. Correct me if i misunderstand again.
You are saying it's just added power so it's optional. Right?
Many ascendacies can be compared to one extra link on your main skill. (Perma Fortify ,20% cull, 20%aoe just listing duelist ones cause i play him the most :P)
Now, if you have a 5l chest in your stash and a 6l chest in your stash and you could complete all content with both of them and you have the option to get both why would you take the 5l one?
Why would you not want the added power? It kills bosses faster and makes anything safer. Therefore added power is always mandatory if you have the option to get it.

It would be stupid to not want to get it and that makes it mandatory in many players' eyes.

Edit: Also, some players like me, just like to create new characters and see how new skills work and how far into the game you can get (without dying in my case). If you want to be creative with builds then ascendacies add one more layer to that and that makes them mandatory.

Furthermore, what's the point of coming back if you are an old player? The power ascendacies add is incredible and makes them a very big bait for old players to come back and play PoE. That makes them mandatory as well.

Well, sure is funny listening to the one person argue vs everyone and call them the minority, lol. I like how he entirely avoided any reply as to why there should not be alternatives in ways to ascend.

An ongoing drone of the arrogant, "my way is the only way".

"

Fruz wrote:

"

Turtledove wrote:

Sorry, you're not making sense. If ascendancy points are optional then it seems you are here saying that unique helms are optional, rare helms are optional and using all passive skill points are optional. Doesn't that then lead to the conclusion that almost everything in PoE optional? and if so by your definition of optional, it seems that your definition of optional is useless?

It seems ?
What the hell ?
It looks like a monologue at this point man, honestly.

Gear and passive points are obviously required to go through the game, period.
One could say that unique items are not required to go through the game, but the gear in general is required, you need some gear to beat the game.
You don't need ascendancy points ( yet, might change since the balancing will definitely take it into account ), it is just a significant power up.

TFH's definition of optional is that something is optional if you can complete all the acts without using it. So, using that definition, if you can get through the entire game using only a white (normal) or blue (magic) helmet as the only restriction. According to TFH's definition of optional that means that rare and unique helmets are optional. Similarly, if the first two passive skill points your character gets are never allocated (in other words you always have two unused passive skill points after level 3) then that would make passive skill points optional, at least two of them. The point being that TFH's definition of optional is meaningless because you could piecemeal restrict yourself from using almost anything in the game and still complete all the acts.

"

Pyrokar wrote:

Ah, i see. Sorry if i misunderstood. Correct me if i misunderstand again.
You are saying it's just added power so it's optional. Right?
Many ascendacies can be compared to one extra link on your main skill. (Perma Fortify ,20% cull, 20%aoe just listing duelist ones cause i play him the most :P)
Now, if you have a 5l chest in your stash and a 6l chest in your stash and you could complete all content with both of them and you have the option to get both why would you take the 5l one?
Why would you not want the added power? It kills bosses faster and makes anything safer. Therefore added power is always mandatory if you have the option to get it.

It would be stupid to not want to get it and that makes it mandatory in many players' eyes.

Well you did imply that I considered all the things that I did not care about as optional.
Yes, ascendancy classes are super powerful ( too much imo ).
Your "therefore" is incorrect.
More efficient != Mandatory.

When the balance will start shifting more, making the game much harder for non ascendancy class users ( because I think that it will honestly, or they will nerf ascendancy classes, which I would kinda like but I don't really see it happening ), the "mandatory" argument will probably make more sense, but at the moment, it still isn't.

It's like saying that Zana is mandatory to beat the game.
She isn't, she just makes it easier.

"

Turtledove wrote:

TFH's definition of optional is that something is optional if you can complete all the acts without using it.

I think that he includes mapping also, not just the main acts.
The absolute endgame goal is level 100, and let's not assume something as ridiculous as reaching it through grinding outside of maps lol, I think that we all agree that reaching the latest levels through map is reaching the endgame, right ?

He is speaking about skill points in general, that you just get passively as the normal course of things, as well as gear.
If you can beat the game only wearing white items, I would be very interested to see it .. but like, realistically, not something that you need to spend over 30 times many more hours to do.
It just looks like you are using logical fallacies to try to make your point, or whatever it is honestly.
To me, talking about "the first two points" saying that they are optional sounds very much like trolling.


Using skill points in the tree is required to beat the game, the game has been designed around this.
Using gear is required to beat the game, the game has been designed around this.

Of course, if you like challenge and want to try something crawy, you could go for a "FFX-NGS" like mod, don't use the tree, but it will be very tedious and difficult, but feel free to do it if it pleases you.
But the game has not been designed around this ( as much as the Sphere Grid in FFX, to use the comparison, because the only way around it is to "cheese" the game with Aeons only. I don't know if that was intended by square soft or not though, but that's nonetheless interesting ).

I love how this guy is still itching his head unable to comprehend something soo simple that has been spoon fed to him three times now, but still doesnt understand.

Again, you have no idea what "core" or "optional" means and the fact that youre still struggling to comprehend that is proof of that. Notice how the other users including Fruz was easily capable of understanding the statement ? Its entirely an issue on your side because you quite literally fucking refuse to read.

"

Tin_Foil_Hat wrote:

I love how this guy is still itching his head unable to comprehend something soo simple that has been spoon fed to him three times now, but still doesnt understand.

Again, you have no idea what "core" or "optional" means and the fact that youre still struggling to comprehend that is proof of that. Notice how the other users including Fruz was easily capable of understanding the statement ? Its entirely an issue on your side because you quite literally fucking refuse to read.

I know what core and optional mean. Ascendancy points are a core part of the game and are no more optional than most other core parts of the game. Your definition of optional is meaningless for the reasons I stated.

"

Fruz wrote:

"

Pyrokar wrote:

Ah, i see. Sorry if i misunderstood. Correct me if i misunderstand again.
You are saying it's just added power so it's optional. Right?
Many ascendacies can be compared to one extra link on your main skill. (Perma Fortify ,20% cull, 20%aoe just listing duelist ones cause i play him the most :P)
Now, if you have a 5l chest in your stash and a 6l chest in your stash and you could complete all content with both of them and you have the option to get both why would you take the 5l one?
Why would you not want the added power? It kills bosses faster and makes anything safer. Therefore added power is always mandatory if you have the option to get it.

It would be stupid to not want to get it and that makes it mandatory in many players' eyes.

Well you did imply that I considered all the things that I did not care about as optional.
Yes, ascendancy classes are super powerful ( too much imo ).
Your "therefore" is incorrect.
More efficient != Mandatory.

When the balance will start shifting more, making the game much harder for non ascendancy class users ( because I think that it will honestly, or they will nerf ascendancy classes, which I would kinda like but I don't really see it happening ), the "mandatory" argument will probably make more sense, but at the moment, it still isn't.

It's like saying that Zana is mandatory to beat the game.
She isn't, she just makes it easier.

I edited some more things on my previous post. Zana is optional too. Which players don't have zana in their hideout? Isn't it stupid if you don't have her to reap the benefits? Forgoing the benefits is stupid. What i am saying is, the ascendacies are optional if you are stupid.

"

Pyrokar wrote:

I edited some more things on my previous post. Zana is optional too. Which players don't have zana in their hideout? Isn't it stupid if you don't have her to reap the benefits? Forgoing the benefits is stupid. What i am saying is, the ascendacies are optional if you are stupid.

=> discussion about semantic.
This is not what optional means.
Optional means that you don't have to use/do it : you can choose to use/do it or not, and this will not keep you from beating the game.
You will be slower yeah, because it is a power up, but it's not relevant on such a scale here imho.

Since Wikipedia has already been used on this thread for quoting definitions :
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/optional

On an efficiency point of view, not using ascendancy classes would be really stupid, I definitely agree with this.
Same as Zana.

BRB making an image because paragraphs too hard for some users apparently. Give me like 10 minutes or so.

"

Fruz wrote:

"

Pyrokar wrote:

I edited some more things on my previous post. Zana is optional too. Which players don't have zana in their hideout? Isn't it stupid if you don't have her to reap the benefits? Forgoing the benefits is stupid. What i am saying is, the ascendacies are optional if you are stupid.

=> discussion about semantic.
This is not what optional means.
Optional means that you don't have to use/do it : you can choose to use/do it or not, and this will not keep you from beating the game.
You will be slower yeah, because it is a power up, but it's not relevant on such a scale here imho.

Since Wikipedia has already been used on this thread for quoting definitions :
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/optional

On an efficiency point of view, not using ascendancy classes would be really stupid, I definitely agree with this.
Same as Zana.

Ok, so we agree? Ascendacies are optional, but it's stupid to not get them. I guess what people disagree on is how relevant it is in an arpg to want to get the max out of your char. To me, it's blasphemy to not want to get the most out of my char/ create builds based on the new classes introduced to the game and if i don't, i absolutely have no reason to play PoE anymore. I am an old player and i have pretty much done everything. To me, ascendacies aren't optional (since i am not stupid, heh :P). It's the reason i even play this game anymore.

But, the reason i even play this game, still, is behind the lab which is the reason i don't even wanna play this game anymore.

So, saying "If you don't like the lab, don't do it. It's optional since ascendacies are optional." Is like saying "Be stupid or leave the game". It's not really something that i would like to do.