Haven't really ever commented on lab, but I hate it.

@sofocle10000

PoP requires exact timing and punishes you with insta death if you make one small mistake. Lab can be rushed like an idiot in most cases. Lab traps arent even close to a real platformer difficulty and they shouldn't be, since PoE is not an arcade platform game. IMO they are just enough of an PITA, to provide an obstacle, but are doable for the vast majority of players (as long as you are willing to make a little effort)

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sofocle10000 wrote:

I said it before, if GGG is satisfied with the traps, they should become part of every aspect of the game, as they do have the nice advantage of affecting mobs also, and they should just become mandatory everywhere ...

No, because traps in the Lab serve a specific role. The role is similar to why there is reflect mechanic in PoE.

And I'm even in the favour of removing the traps. I don't really care how the Lab is done, as long as ascending is a non-trivial trial, that requres gameplay effort (not WTB effort) from the player and culls out 1-million DPS mirrored gear noobs. In this regard, the Lab should even be solo-only.

For years I've been listening to people saying how PoE is "hardcore", not like that causal shit Grezzard made. D3 is that way ->, we are hardcore mofos here!!

And then GGG makes the Lab... :P

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morbo wrote:

And then GGG makes the Lab... :P

I really don't know, soloing 75lvl grift was much more hard and engaging for me that doing any Lab run or map trials. I don't think that "uber" Lab will be much different.

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morbo wrote:

@sofocle10000

PoP requires exact timing and punishes you with insta death if you make one small mistake. Lab can be rushed like an idiot in most cases. Lab traps arent even close to a real platformer difficulty and they shouldn't be, since PoE is not an arcade platform game. IMO they are just enough of an PITA, to provide an obstacle, but are doable for the vast majority of players (as long as you are willing to make a little effort)

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sofocle10000 wrote:

I said it before, if GGG is satisfied with the traps, they should become part of every aspect of the game, as they do have the nice advantage of affecting mobs also, and they should just become mandatory everywhere ...

No, because traps in the Lab serve a specific role. The role is similar to why there is reflect mechanic in PoE.

And I'm even in the favour of removing the traps. I don't really care how the Lab is done, as long as ascending is a non-trivial trial, that requres gameplay effort (not WTB effort) from the player and culls out 1-million DPS mirrored gear noobs. In this regard, the Lab should even be solo-only.

For years I've been listening to people saying how PoE is "hardcore", not like that causal shit Grezzard made. D3 is that way ->, we are hardcore mofos here!!

And then GGG makes the Lab... :P

PoP never displays lag/disconnect/FPS drops due to the the standalone on your PC, as long as you had electric power and non faulty hardware you could run it like a boss which is definetly not the case with PoE, hence the Hardcore is better represented in PoP that in PoE from my point of view (and there was no chicken way out either).

The traps are no PITA due to lots of technical problems, I would agree with you if the game would be working as in before Ascendancy update, as it is right now they are way more dangerous than most of the boss fights from maps tier 1-7, from my point of view.

Don't start me on the role of traps or even the reflect, these mechanics are in the game because GGG decided to balance for opie-op, and game breaking mechanics that they find along the way, I sincerely hope that around PoE version 5.4 we will have better balance that makes this kind of fixes obsolete...

I'm with you that the "Trial's" should make you consider every aspect of a build - speed, durability, damage output, skill technique and the "Labyrinth" should be the pinnacle of an epic journey, through the unexpected.

PoE does no HC right unfortunately, they have to work on technical problems and proper balancing (no "stupid" one shots due to Alt+F4 balancing), only then we can call ourselves HC-mofos here - I will be among the first casuals that start to play HC then!

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sofocle10000 wrote:

PoE does no HC right unfortunately, they have to work on technical problems and proper balancing (no "stupid" one shots due to Alt+F4 balancing), only then we can call ourselves HC-mofos here - I will be among the first casuals that start to play HC then!

I didn't mean hardcore as in "permadeath league", but hardcore as in tough game, no care-bear, like the games were in the 80s & 90s.

Technical problems were always a big killer of players in HC league. Desync, freezes, lag, etc. I have godly 30ms internet and still experience lag spikes sometimes. I don't understand why would someone with 200ms ping even play in a HC league? Ok, you can play, it's a free country, but then dont complain about lag deaths or desync or server crashes or FPS lag... all those technical problems we know exist in PoE for years.

Lab traps are only standing out, because the rest of the game got too easy. In Open beta lvl 71 Temple Piety would "oneshot" you if you stood still for two seconds under her lightning storm. In this case lag would kill you just the same as standing on a trap.

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morbo wrote:

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sofocle10000 wrote:

PoE does no HC right unfortunately, they have to work on technical problems and proper balancing (no "stupid" one shots due to Alt+F4 balancing), only then we can call ourselves HC-mofos here - I will be among the first casuals that start to play HC then!

I didn't mean hardcore as in "permadeath league", but hardcore as in tough game, no care-bear, like the games were in the 80s & 90s.

Technical problems were always a big killer of players in HC league. Desync, freezes, lag, etc. I have godly 30ms internet and still experience lag spikes sometimes. I don't understand why would someone with 200ms ping even play in a HC league? Ok, you can play, it's a free country, but then dont complain about lag deaths or desync or server crashes or FPS lag... all those technical problems we know exist in PoE for years.

Lab traps are only standing out, because the rest of the game got too easy. In Open beta lvl 71 Temple Piety would "oneshot" you if you stood still for two seconds under her lightning storm. In this case lag would kill you just the same as standing on a trap.

"Oneshot" =/= two seconds. One shots that you can't counter no matter the layers of defense or play style skill is actually what bothers me, and should not exist in the game. The "balance" would have to find better ways to kill you, a thousand cut's during a couple seconds, huge telegraphed attacks powerful hits and such should all come in play in a more fair way then now.

You could always get lag due to a series of factors and you assume your choice, but then you can't say you are playing HC, if at first time of trouble you use a <1 ms Alt+F4 command...

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sofocle10000 wrote:

... but then you can't say you are playing HC, if at first time of trouble you use a <1 ms Alt+F4 command...

It's the game developers who design the game around logging out. I cant blame players for using it, if the game developers allow it.

PoE's HC is some bastard version... I prefer D3 HC, where you cant insta-logout but the fights are more attrition based, instead of burst damage / oneshot.

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morbo wrote:

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sofocle10000 wrote:

... but then you can't say you are playing HC, if at first time of trouble you use a <1 ms Alt+F4 command...

It's the game developers who design the game around logging out. I cant blame players for using it, if the game developers allow it.

PoE's HC is some bastard version... I prefer D3 HC, where you cant insta-logout but the fights are more attrition based, instead of burst damage / oneshot.

And that is the solo point where Diablo 3 is ahead of PoE in my view. I am patiently waiting for proper balance and proper HC mechanics before I'll join the HC crowd!

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sidtherat wrote:

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Yet, a stupid trap 20 levels below your character level can practically one shot that character. I think that is beyond ridiculous for an arpg!

it kills only the careless players. and these players should be killed, not rewarded. pay attention, focus and the traps are a joke

some might not like them - fair enough. but other than that they are a player's skill check: you do them or you die to them. and you can practice this as there are like 20-30 trap layout totals. no excuses

and some builds having it easier? sure. (just like other situations in this game where builds have it harder or easier) but point me to a build that CANNOT pass traps - i cannot think of any. the Izaro is another issue as there are builds that simply struggle vs him. but traps? please.

I agree that traps are a joke, just not a very funny or fun joke. (edit: pun intended) Regarding killing only careless players, I don't play HC but, my observation seems to be that labyrinth receives more hate from HC players than SC players. I assert that SC players are generally much more careless than HC players. This makes an interesting contrast to your assertion that traps only kill careless players, especially when the examples given by the HC players frequently involve desync.

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Turtledove wrote:

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sidtherat wrote:

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Yet, a stupid trap 20 levels below your character level can practically one shot that character. I think that is beyond ridiculous for an arpg!

it kills only the careless players. and these players should be killed, not rewarded. pay attention, focus and the traps are a joke

some might not like them - fair enough. but other than that they are a player's skill check: you do them or you die to them. and you can practice this as there are like 20-30 trap layout totals. no excuses

and some builds having it easier? sure. (just like other situations in this game where builds have it harder or easier) but point me to a build that CANNOT pass traps - i cannot think of any. the Izaro is another issue as there are builds that simply struggle vs him. but traps? please.

I agree that traps are a joke, just not a very funny or fun joke. (edit: pun intended) Regarding killing only careless players, I don't play HC but, my observation seems to be that labyrinth receives more hate from HC players than SC players. I assert that SC players are generally much more careless than HC players. This makes an interesting contrast to your assertion that traps only kill careless players, especially when the examples given by the HC players frequently involve desync.

Hardcore is actually dead this league, dear Turtledove. You can see that from the exalt prices. When in perandus hc this time around (3 weeks into the league) exalts would go for 1:50+ chaos, they are now 1:24, less than half.

Exalt prices drop that much only at the end of the leagues in hardcore, when no one is playing anymore but only a few, who try to buy chaos to roll maps with any possible ratio.

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Pyrokar wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

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sidtherat wrote:

Turtledove said, "Yet, a stupid trap 20 levels below your character level can practically one shot that character. I think that is beyond ridiculous for an arpg!"

it kills only the careless players. and these players should be killed, not rewarded. pay attention, focus and the traps are a joke

some might not like them - fair enough. but other than that they are a player's skill check: you do them or you die to them. and you can practice this as there are like 20-30 trap layout totals. no excuses

and some builds having it easier? sure. (just like other situations in this game where builds have it harder or easier) but point me to a build that CANNOT pass traps - i cannot think of any. the Izaro is another issue as there are builds that simply struggle vs him. but traps? please.

I agree that traps are a joke, just not a very funny or fun joke. (edit: pun intended) Regarding killing only careless players, I don't play HC but, my observation seems to be that labyrinth receives more hate from HC players than SC players. I assert that SC players are generally much more careless than HC players. This makes an interesting contrast to your assertion that traps only kill careless players, especially when the examples given by the HC players frequently involve desync.

Hardcore is actually dead this league, dear Turtledove. You can see that from the exalt prices. When in perandus hc this time around (3 weeks into the league) exalts would go for 1:50+ chaos, they are now 1:24, less than half.

Exalt prices drop that much only at the end of the leagues in hardcore, when no one is playing anymore but only a few, who try to buy chaos to roll maps with any possible ratio.

If attendance in the HC league has been significantly impacted by Labyrinth, I know that GGG would know that. They seem to have pretty good reports internally on this kind of stuff that they sometimes share some parts with their customer base. It means in my mind that they will probably do something to make the labyrinth optional or at least the traps optional in the next release, around September.