OP mechanics: cast on crit, vaal pact, surgeon flasks [2 boss, vuln Vaal Temple DEATHLESS]

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StrongWitchCraft wrote:

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MatrixFactor wrote:

You clearly have no experience with CoC discharge. How can you say it would be dumpstered in a 78 map when I show you vaal temple double boss with vuln deathless..? I was doing by far the most damage in any party in warbands league, and even most parties in standard where people have mirrored weapons. I was also easily able to do beyond bosses and map bosses whereas most other builds, including meta ones like cyclone, SRS, and most incinerators would have to hide or leave. I'm talking 80-82 map rotations here, so basically people who know what they're doing and have very good gear. One guy even hosted free 82 maps for me; at first he was helping fight (reaver), but after one map he realized he was doing no damage in comparison so he just put on exp gear and let me carry him.

I don't know why so little of the population is doing it, but if you look at the feedback in my thread it's mostly "wow I tried it, and this really needs to be nerfed." Also you can find testimonies from several people playing this in both perma HC and temp HC.

He know, but he having fan with pretending like he not.
He just trolling, dont waste your time.

He saw your vid and know how OP surgeons and coc, but still trolling here, it more important to him.

Dude wtf man the guy above you is countering every single fact and all you can do is say... hes trolling? Are you serious right now? That's lower me like if you can't counter the guy don't go backing up another guy then call the one hes opposing a troll like that's just ridiculous.

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goetzjam wrote:

The most common point to look at from your example above, basically not elemental damage, which salty was trying to point out that was the most broken aspect of the unlimited flask charge useage.

I tank conservatory and uber vaal's ball lightning, and laser, shrine piety's thunderstorms and ice shots, as well as uber atziri's split phase thanks to permanently active resist flasks.

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Again you mention one variation of crit, which you think is broken. Why is the fix to remove a flask mod and aliments and simply not to nerf the combination\access of your particular build?

I don't see that video relink it.


That build would be neigh impossible without vegan daggers, so why not just remove that or make it have a downside instead of nerfing complete playstyles and mechanics that aren't actually OP?

Funny enough your you can't even link a video of you doing uber atziri yourself to help highlight the 2 weaknesses of the build, single target damage (you even listed this in your post) and its pretty glass cannon-y.


Make your build in HC and then you can talk, until then your experiences in SC don't matter much in my perspective in terms of game balance.

Again its limited in nature and not possible for everyone, your build isn't as strong without many aspects of gear that is simply out of reach for most PoE players. Just 1 piece, either a 6 link or the ammy would be a whole leagues worth of work, let alone multiple multimodded pieces and multiple master modded gear. That is the reason why people aren't doing it, you even said yourself don't do this build first.

The video is in OP. More videos in my thread, including two videos of uber. You can see my first attempt in the videos section where I die 3 times. A guy used the build to kill uber over 70x in the 1MSC so that should answer objections to cost and uber viability. He also leveled 92-93 in uber, so that should answer objections to single target and survivability. Again your objections are all coming from inexperience with this build and doubt for the sake of discussion/argumentation.

I reached 100 in SC, which is probably as hard as 94 in HC. Like I said there are people who played and still play this build in HC. Both perma HC and the 4w/5w events. And the game isn't balanced around HC anyways, or are you seriously claiming that building for lag spikes and disconnects should be something that everyone should do? That's the main difference between HC and SC builds IMO.

Any build that can reach 100 reliably and do core/uber atziri deathless somewhat reliably is not glass cannon. Still it has way more damage than any comparably survivable build (except anapoe's incinerator) That's why it's OP...

The build costs 30ex to start (you only need 5L volls), and it's far better than any other 30ex build. Vagan daggers only add about 15% damage, but they make gearing cheaper overall.

Cast on crit flasks are pretty op, I doubt with a high crit chance phys reave character i could reliably count down every 5secs and hit 3 flasks, repeat as long as boss is alive i can do this easily with mjolner and prob even more easily with a coc build since then you triple dip in flask recovery.
(btw this isnt hard to do and i dont think you need a macro for it.)
But as an aside it also seems like a thing for poison arrow with flask recovery nodes just not as good for bosses obviously.

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I tank conservatory and uber vaal's ball lightning, and laser, shrine piety's thunderstorms and ice shots, as well as uber atziri's split phase thanks to permanently active resist flasks.

And all of those can be done by simply planning for the fight. No need to have "that high" of res all the time.

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The video is in OP. More videos in my thread, including two videos of uber. You can see my first attempt in the videos section where I die 3 times. A guy used the build to kill uber over 70x in the 1MSC so that should answer objections to cost and uber viability. He also leveled 92-93 in uber, so that should answer objections to single target and survivability. Again your objections are all coming from inexperience with this build and doubt for the sake of discussion/argumentation.

A guy isn't going to cut it if you want to use it as an argument you have to at least provide a link to his build so we can see what the differences between you and he.

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I reached 100 in SC, which is probably as hard as 94 in HC. Like I said there are people who played and still play this build in HC. Both perma HC and the 4w/5w events. And the game isn't balanced around HC anyways, or are you seriously claiming that building for lag spikes and disconnects should be something that everyone should do? That's the main difference between HC and SC builds IMO.

No the main difference between hc and sc is in SC you don't have to play around with 1 life. If you mess up and tank something you weren't suppose to or do something like lose all your ES you don't have to logout. We see in your video the fight is VERY sketchy, also a double boss vaal map is probably easier then a single one with that build simply because you have more targets to hit. Still surprising that fight looked relatively easy, dispite the spikes.

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Any build that can reach 100 reliably and do core/uber atziri deathless somewhat reliably is not glass cannon. Still it has way more damage than any comparably survivable build (except anapoe's incinerator) That's why it's OP...

But does that mean the flask mod is OP or the mechanics and items used in conjunction are OP. You don't see people running around with crit flask mods on spell based builds and calling them OP. It has and will forever be attack based mods that are the extreme of the equation.

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The build costs 30ex to start (you only need 5L volls), and it's far better than any other 30ex build. Vagan daggers only add about 15% damage, but they make gearing cheaper overall.

30ex is more then most people get in 1 league. 30ex build won't be doing uber atziri I don't think or at least the extreme of the spectrum you've listed here. Much like LLST instead of nerfing a mechanic that is a crutch of a build like yours, just nerf the build so that others that aren't outside the scope of broken can use the mechanic as intended.

For 30ex you can do a whole lot of builds, we need a much larger scope of peoples experiences with what 30ex could buy you in order to determine if this truly is the 30ex build to go (its clearly not due to popularity) or if perhaps the builds power simply isn't realized because it isn't HC viable no streamer to copy off of.

@StrongWitchCraft

Why they don't just ban you at this point I don't know. Make any resemblance of an intellectual argument when you try to call someone a troll, otherwise it just makes it look like you call anyone that disagrees with you a troll, despite making a valid attempt to argue the points made at hand.

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goetzjam wrote:

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I tank conservatory and uber vaal's ball lightning, and laser, shrine piety's thunderstorms and ice shots, as well as uber atziri's split phase thanks to permanently active resist flasks.

And all of those can be done by simply planning for the fight. No need to have "that high" of res all the time.

30ex is more then most people get in 1 league. 30ex build won't be doing uber atziri I don't think or at least the extreme of the spectrum you've listed here. Much like LLST instead of nerfing a mechanic that is a crutch of a build like yours, just nerf the build so that others that aren't outside the scope of broken can use the mechanic as intended.

For 30ex you can do a whole lot of builds, we need a much larger scope of peoples experiences with what 30ex could buy you in order to determine if this truly is the 30ex build to go (its clearly not due to popularity) or if perhaps the builds power simply isn't realized because it isn't HC viable no streamer to copy off of.

Yeah but the point is I don't have to plan, I just bring my flasks and I'm guaranteed safe. Unlike people who have fixed-charge flasks that need to time them properly, and eventually will mess up. Or they have to swap gear. Impossible for high level rotations. Also how do you plan for beyond bosses and exiles?

1Msc uber killer guy.

Actually you could do uber atziri for around 15ex in warbands when scold's was 6-7ex. Incinerate + Scold's + Vaal Pact + Vaal Molten Shell.

I agree with nerfing the build but I don't see how they can do it besides changing voll's protector and devotion with no legacy versions (like they did with coe and acuity). I hope they do do that (Proctector => 20% chance to grant PC on crit Devo => 20% chance to grant EC on PC expire/consume), but if they do I will still abuse vaal pact and surgeon flasks on something like scolds + VMS.

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Yeah but the point is I don't have to plan, I just bring my flasks and I'm guaranteed safe. Unlike people who have fixed-charge flasks that need to time them properly, and eventually will mess up. Or they have to swap gear. Impossible for high level rotations. Also how do you plan for beyond bosses and exiles?

So once you got geared you never once died in that character? I find that hard to believe.

Exiles, rofl none of them are even scary anymore, I might fear magnus, but hes about the only one left. As for beyond bosses the amount of time those spawn outside of specific event modifiers is a handful or less per league.

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1Msc uber killer guy.

That level of gear is only possible in SC at least no where near possible until much later in a HC league. Look at his gear and tell me how much you think that cost.

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Actually you could do uber atziri for around 15ex in warbands when scold's was 6-7ex. Incinerate + Scold's + Vaal Pact + Vaal Molten Shell.

What is your point here, are you trying to say you can do uber with other cheaper builds, because I think I've already established that. PA\SRS are both cheaper and both can do uber atziri without relying on surgeons flask mods.

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I agree with nerfing the build but I don't see how they can do it besides changing voll's protector and devotion with no legacy versions (like they did with coe and acuity). I hope they do do that (Proctector => 20% chance to grant PC on crit Devo => 20% chance to grant EC on PC expire/consume), but if they do I will still abuse vaal pact and surgeon flasks on something like scolds + VMS.

You linked the VMS thing but the flask listed under the build aren't surgeons.

They won't retroactively change those items. The gloves were changed in a far different time and eventually changed back. COE was never suppose to work like that with stacking that many spell multipliers, it was a way to get melee and wand CI\ES users to be more popular, not the brokenness that was LLST.


Volls protector alone isn't that great of a chest, its unique property is fine.

Volls devotion was and has always been a broken item design. They can't go back and change an item like this and all previous versions, I personally think they like this item and what it can do, just want to trim the extremes off.


Again nothing you've said indicates the flask are the broken aspect but rather something the broken build uses. Plenty of non broken builds use surgeons flask mod without the abuse seen here, look at something else being the fix not just one aspect. GGG can introduce more interesting utility flask prefixes that could help the difference between these flask types, plus you've neglected to mention or address that various types of builds can work around increasing the duration, reducing the charges used and increasing the recovery amount. If something like 2% max res or similar was added as a prefix then non crit flask WOULD directly be better then the crit flask and therefore more competition amount various builds.

Ultimately your build is super expensive, especially for temp leagues and out of the hands but probably a very very small fraction of players. I've mentioned some weaknesses and perhaps somethings to target instead of a flask mod, nothing too much more to say at this point. Again after almost 3 years this mod has been in the game and still withstood the 2.0 gutting\re-balancing I highly doubt its going to go anywhere.

Yes... the mechanics are so overpowered that the HC (because SC doesn't count when it comes to this type of discussion) 1 month that just finished was basically 100% Poison Arrow and Incinerate builds. The guy who hit 100 first on any league was a PA build on the Flashback.

I'm not saying that Cast on Crit isn't really strong, but to act like it is the ultimate build is ridiculous when the people who play the most efficiently (the people leading the ladders) aren't really using it that much.

Also, I rolled on the floor at "almost deathless" refering to the Core run. Sorry dude, if it isn't deathless, it doesn't count. The most OP builds in the game don't die to anything.

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goetzjam wrote:

That level of gear is only possible in SC at least no where near possible until much later in a HC league. Look at his gear and tell me how much you think that cost.

You're really overestimating the cost of the gear to a dedicated player. Here ekunholy (a very experienced HC player) testifies that he had the 25-30ex (SC prices) version of the build ready around 2weeks into the 5whc. Unfortunately he died because he didn't have enough chaos res on gear.

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They won't retroactively change those items. The gloves were changed in a far different time and eventually changed back. COE was never suppose to work like that with stacking that many spell multipliers, it was a way to get melee and wand CI\ES users to be more popular, not the brokenness that was LLST.

Volls protector alone isn't that great of a chest, its unique property is fine.

Volls devotion was and has always been a broken item design. They can't go back and change an item like this and all previous versions, I personally think they like this item and what it can do, just want to trim the extremes off.

Actually Protector is much more than a 7L for dischargers. PCoC gives 1 charge per attack, VoP gives 1 charge per enemy hit with a crit. This is literally 10x as many charges per attack in many situations. Changing it to 20% would still let it function as a 7L with PCoC for everyone else, but it would significantly nerf dischargers.

Without reliable PC generation Devotion isn't as strong. It's the synergy between protector and devotion that leads to OPness.

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Again nothing you've said indicates the flask are the broken aspect but rather something the broken build uses. Plenty of non broken builds use surgeons flask mod without the abuse seen here, look at something else being the fix not just one aspect. GGG can introduce more interesting utility flask prefixes that could help the difference between these flask types, plus you've neglected to mention or address that various types of builds can work around increasing the duration, reducing the charges used and increasing the recovery amount. If something like 2% max res or similar was added as a prefix then non crit flask WOULD directly be better then the crit flask and therefore more competition amount various builds.

My problem with surgeon's flasks is that I am able to make my entire phys+elem mitigation be just those flasks. As a result I just grab the efficient +HP/ES stuff and crit stuff and boom it's a viable build. Then vaalpact lets you convert your damage to sustain. So you just get enough mitigation + HP/ES to not get 1 shot and invest everything else in damage.

Unique flasks are a good counter to surgeon flasks, but they're not enough IMO. I don't use any unique flasks on my CoC build, and I don't believe any of them would make the build better.

If I didn't have surgeon flasks I would get smacked by phys damage much more often. Or I would have lower total HP or damage by taking a AR/ES shield instead of ES+Spell damage.

BTW I didn't die from 99->100 after I learned all my lessons (mainly to self-cast EC before engaging a pack if I have no ECs). I even did bosses like Magera and Village ruin multiple times in that period.

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Ultimately your build is super expensive, especially for temp leagues and out of the hands but probably a very very small fraction of players. I've mentioned some weaknesses and perhaps somethings to target instead of a flask mod, nothing too much more to say at this point. Again after almost 3 years this mod has been in the game and still withstood the 2.0 gutting\re-balancing I highly doubt its going to go anywhere.

It's really not any more expensive than a SRS or PA with a 6L +3. Adding L4 empower is like upgrading from 5L volls to 6L volls, and more expensive.

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ggnorekthx wrote:

Yes... the mechanics are so overpowered that the HC (because SC doesn't count when it comes to this type of discussion) 1 month that just finished was basically 100% Poison Arrow and Incinerate builds. The guy who hit 100 first on any league was a PA build on the Flashback.

I'm not saying that Cast on Crit isn't really strong, but to act like it is the ultimate build is ridiculous when the people who play the most efficiently (the people leading the ladders) aren't really using it that much.

Also, I rolled on the floor at "almost deathless" refering to the Core run. Sorry dude, if it isn't deathless, it doesn't count. The most OP builds in the game don't die to anything.

HC is irrelevant to balance discussions. L100 viable in SC and 0-1 death core/uber is enough survivability. HC perverts balance because instead of being safe 99% of the time with 150k DPS you want 99.9% with 30k DPS. No one on SC would take that trade, yet on HC players frequently do. For HC Krux's EB/MoM mjolner with 97 allres and 70k armor is unbeatable, but it's not a OP build because it has poor clearspeed and even bad single target (his core malachai kill takes 9mins, mine is 2:30).

Why are you bringing races into the discussion? It's like saying flame totem + firestorm trap is the ultimate build because all the racers use it to level to 70.

Let people start with 30ex of gear and let's see then how many of them play hybrid CoC discharge vs the others.

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You're really overestimating the cost of the gear to a dedicated player. Here ekunholy (a very experienced HC player) testifies that he had the 25-30ex (SC prices) version of the build ready around 2weeks into the 5whc. Unfortunately he died because he didn't have enough chaos res on gear.

That alone goes to prove how gear requirement this build is, utilizing 2 eleron rings, unique gloves, unique ammy, unique chest really limits your options for gearing. I don't think your build is HC viable.

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My problem with surgeon's flasks is that I am able to make my entire phys+elem mitigation be just those flasks. As a result I just grab the efficient +HP/ES stuff and crit stuff and boom it's a viable build. Then vaalpact lets you convert your damage to sustain. So you just get enough mitigation + HP/ES to not get 1 shot and invest everything else in damage.

Again the tree doesn't give you really any other options then utilizing flask for that side of the tree, at least not reliably. You STILL get chucked even with the flask up, you may have played flawless after 99 to get to 100, but that doesn't mean the build is OP, that just means by the time you hit 99 you mastered the playstyle.

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Unique flasks are a good counter to surgeon flasks, but they're not enough IMO. I don't use any unique flasks on my CoC build, and I don't believe any of them would make the build better.

I've seen people that use crit still use Taste of Hate and rumis.

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It's really not any more expensive than a SRS or PA with a 6L +3. Adding L4 empower is like upgrading from 5L volls to 6L volls, and more expensive.

How expensive do you think a +3 bow\staff is? Plus even without empower those builds clear super fast and require "basically" no other items then that 1 key weapon.

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HC is irrelevant to balance discussions.

HC is THE MOST relevant you can be when talking about balance, SC should mirror HC gameplay, not the other way around.

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Let people start with 30ex of gear and let's see then how many of them play hybrid CoC discharge vs the others.

If they want to live and have the best possible solo clearspeed and survability, I don't think most would choose your build. Its actually quite clear they won't as the top of the SC ladder would be full of people doing what you do. Thats not even counting the HC ladder.

However, if you'd like to give me your gear I can try it for you and perhaps that can persuade you into trying something else. :P

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goetzjam wrote:

That alone goes to prove how gear requirement this build is, utilizing 2 eleron rings, unique gloves, unique ammy, unique chest really limits your options for gearing. I don't think your build is HC viable.

Only voll's is expensive among those. Also you can think whatever you want, and I personally don't care about HC (because of the 99.9% survival + 30k DPS vs 99% survival + 150k DPS argument), but there are people playing this build on HC. Clearly other (potentially more experienced) HC players think it is viable.

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goetzjam wrote:

If they want to live and have the best possible solo clearspeed and survability, I don't think most would choose your build. Its actually quite clear they won't as the top of the SC ladder would be full of people doing what you do. Thats not even counting the HC ladder.

However, if you'd like to give me your gear I can try it for you and perhaps that can persuade you into trying something else. :P

Again, as I answered to the other guy, bringing races into the discussion is somewhat pointless. Obviously you can't play a build that takes 10 days to gear up if you could be L98-99 by then by playing PA, incinerate, SRS, vaal spark or cyclone. Just like you wouldn't seriously play something that's not flame totem/firestorm trap for a 1-70 race (unless you're Helmann).