OP mechanics: cast on crit, vaal pact, surgeon flasks [2 boss, vuln Vaal Temple DEATHLESS]

The problem isnt Discharge... Nor is it even COC...

The Main reason this build is so insane (and i have one so i know) is 3 things...

The Vagan Dagger and Voll's Devotion... And the synergy you get from EE and Curse's you work into the spec.

Take those first 2 items out of this build and you'll do well to push Normal Atziri with it... Its not completely terrible trash build but its certainly not this op monster we see people running right now.
WITH those 2 items alone the build just goes retarded. The ammy is beyond obvious when combined with Discharge and then the Vagan Dagger allows one to be much more flexable on gear as well as the tree because Accuracy can be completely taken out of the setup.

The ammy... Hard as shit and expensive to get.. or used to be when i was running mine.. And not only does it increase damage output but also survival via End charges. And the Vagan Dagger.. Well its probably the most important part of the build besides the chest to get it really working well.but once you get it your flasks will then last forever, You will always proc 100 times more than before, (Depending on the base ofcourse) and ALL your gear and tree nodes with Accuracy can now be replaced with any other stat you want because they no longer do anything. Meaning your rings and ammy now can be rolled with crit, life, a resist, whatever you need because you no longer need that accu roll now.

Then because im running Fire and Lightning via PCs and ECs you throw some cold anywhere on a ring or ammy or whatever... And now we put EE into the mix. Then we have curses... Ele Weakness is another damage booster on top of all the others we have going. You can easily make mobs have -100%+ resist if you really invest for it between EE and curses alone.

The build is crushing but the one issue i had with the build was survival... but thats because my tree was more like Mathil's Fakner than this guys... this guy went completely different and not only achieved the same DPS (Maybe even a little more) but 5K ES on top of what im running for life (4.3K currently i believe i didnt have jewels for my build when i respeced after 2.0) Not to mention more spell damage and area of effect i did not have. I have to admit.. My version was pretty fucking nasty and i achieved some crazy things with mine.. but this dudes tops mine for sure.. especially survival wise. Yet even with a much less tanky version like i was running i still crushed the apex deathless and got Uber down once i got a really nice Vagan Dagger worked in. (If i had ANXs... i would steamroll Uber... That Dagger is just nuts. This was in 1.3 BTW NOW i would NEED the AXN probably for the Abyss. The Leech Nerf was already a hit to the spec.)

As long as the Vagan Daggers exist as well as Voll's Devotion... this build will always be one of the best most insane builds a person can make in POE hands down... And one of the most fun.
Should it be nerfed? Well that depends.. If they were to do something like remove the Ammy or Vagan Crafts from the game then that would not only hurt this build but many other builds that are possible with Vagan Crafts and this build is not the ONLY build that can make good use of the Ammy either... this is just the most well known of those builds that can be made with it. Personally i dont see an issue with a build that destroys the game once you have put all the pieces together to make it do so.
The Vagan Dagger and Ammy are huge to the build but from there theres alot more that has to be worked in to maximize what they do for the build so all in all... i guess its really up to GGG..
Im suprised the build has been around this long without things being nerfed on it but it has been around a long time and you do still have to play the build correctly to make it work too.

Nerfs and destruction of builds is never fun or good. And its not like just any new player can jump on this game and in a week have this build running and doing these things.. It took me around 2 months almost messing around and trading up and selling things and working on the build and lvling it without these items before it evolved into being the machine it is now.. so with that in mind i think it should be left alone. Surgeon Flasks will probably end up getting nerfed anyway because they are a problem on almost ALL COC specs. Maybe make Vagan Daggers cost a little more than 5 Alts.. thats kinda a joke but otherwise everything else on the build takes time to get and has to be worked for. Even the Dagger as cheap as it is you have to buy tons of them and Regal the shit out of many of them to finally get one to hit the right Prefix so you can multimod everything else you need on it so even that as cheap as it is becomes not so easy to get in grand scheme of things... Not for a really nice one that will crush the entire game anyway. I think i have around 40+ Bricked and semi bricked Daggers in Standard from trying to get the right one for mine. The Voll's ammy was like 25Ex at the time i believe, i 6L BOTH my own Voll's chest..(I Run 2 Chests for testing things... i Hate Chromes) i mean i have alot of time, effort, and currency in mine so its not like i had the most OP build in POE given to me and didnt have work for it... because i damn sure did.. And so did Matrix.

It was by far one of the most fun builds i ever made in POE so thats why i cant get with saying the build as a whole needs to be nerfed.... Theres some things worked into the build that might need adjusting for the same reasons they need adjusting across the board Like surgeon flasks but, the build itself is not easy to put together nor an OP beast till you get everything together.

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You don't know what you're talking about. BTW PoeDan79 is the guy who killed uber on tempest (not using this build), so he knows a thing or two about HC.

Why the fuck should anyone care what this guy thinks about your build, yes he did uber in tempest multiple times, but he did it with a completely different build that has no merit in this discussion at all. If he wants to pop in here and explain his opinion hes welcome to, but you can't and shouldn't be speaking in his behalf.

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This is the third piece of evidence I have presented about this build being HC viable (people who play it on HC), meanwhile you haven't tried it and are still trying to talk trash.

What 2 people maybe up to 5, in your videos you get CHUCKED that isn't healthy to play that sort of build in a HC setting, if they are doing it more power to them, but look at the difference in as you would call it 5 link rejects in the HC event vs the SC one. People aren't doing it. Any variation of vagan dagger and double volls is almost always a SC build.

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Either way I presented my argument about why HC is boring and irrelevant to balance. You never countered my argument (SC: survive 99% of all situations + 150k DPS -> allows you to use multiple defense archetypes vs HC: 99.9% survival + 30k DPS -> funnels you into passive defense builds) and still keep spouting your line.

HC isn't boring because you actually have tangible risk and you lose something when you die. SC is just a linear progression without that risk and without that risk the excitement of the game is much lower. I used to play SC only until I tried HC and after a while I've started to enjoy it.

You spout out that SC should be the focus of the game when it absolutely was not when PoE was created and funded and should remain true to that aspect going forward, much like it should remain true to not introducing or changing things just because people (like you) call for the wrong change.

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Yeah so perpetual and surgeons are equally powerful. Got it... What about the 6-7 examples of boss fights I gave that don't spawn adds?

Basically 1/2 of them are an absolute joke and if your build is suffering at the high end of maps and can't complete the challenge with 1 round of flask charges, tp out and get more. That was an intended function from day 1. However builds at the very top of the ladder don't need crutches like your 88 all res flask because they simply perform better without relying on it. Not only does the ladder indicate this but the popularity of the items and such that go with it do.

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What about human error on activating non-surgeons flasks at the right time? Those don't matter? Come on man... Stop arguing nonsense.

If you are activating 3-4 flask almost non stop manually because surgeons vs muscle memory of 1-2 flask you are more inclined to make a mistake on the 3-4 button presses then the 1-2.


Answer me these 2 questions OP:

Can your build be "fixed" without changing the surgeons flask mod? (even though previously OP builds that happened to be crit got fixed without removing the mod)

If not what true effect do you think will happen after the surgeon mod is removed for your build?

You can actually test this by just using perpetual flask mod in your slots. Let me know or better SHOW me how the build behaves after that change.


@Demonoz

If the build can be adjusted down without removing the flask mod, then why should the flask mod be removed?

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goetzjam wrote:

@Demonoz

If the build can be adjusted down without removing the flask mod, then why should the flask mod be removed?

I only mention the flask mod because its mainly something i notice on ALL my COC builds... I NEVER have my res flasks down.. ever... only on boss's will i have 80-90% uptimes. Thats on Discharge, Barriage 2-3 Spell, whatever. Actually more so on Barrige COC. thats the only cheap thing i found on COC builds as a whole... But i still run into the drawback of survival being and issue most times anyway because of the chest so even that isnt that big of deal. Without REALLY nice gear (and jewels now) you will struggle to get the crit and everything else you need to make COC work AND anything over 4K life... Thats one thing i find interesting in this dudes build is going hybrid.. and it looks like it works.

And as far as macros go... Maybe its because i play guitar or something but ive never had an issue hitting 3-4 flasks at once when i play COC specs.. in fact i play ALL my COC specs in this fashion!

The only other thing that could be adjusted is Curses... And with the new Blasphemy gem coming that might be something GGG could look into. Maybe adjust the Damage per charge but thats part of the investment into making the build do what it does. IDK im not a balance guy i just now what i experienced playing the build.. nothing more.

Like i said i think the build investment with what it does is pretty well in line... it does amazing things yes but like i said... you have to work for it to make it do these things!

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goetzjam wrote:

Funny enough no matter how someone perceives your remarks here on the flameblast nerf its a clear indicator that you don't care about other builds or consequences as long as what you perceive is broken is destroyed.

Okay, here comes explanation for dumb people. IT WAS SARKASM.

Since I exactly understand consequences of possible nerfs to this build (unlike GGG - proven many many times) -> I proposed removal of these mechanics. This build would still work, it would still have its insane dps. It would still be tanky. However you would have to plan on using flasks as everyone else do and you wouldn't have extra status alignments which you don't even aim for with this build. This build is not based around them and therefore it doesn't deserve them.

On the other hand I would buff status alignments and sources of +chance to apply statu alignments in order to not screw up builds which want to utilize them.

Vaal temple vuln double boss deathless? I dont know what else you want. Nobody would do that, nobody. Note that I dont mind seeing this map mod being doable, what I find weird tho is that only one build is capable of doing so.

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Okay, here comes explanation for dumb people. IT WAS SARKASM.

Ok I figured that much :P

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Since I exactly understand consequences of possible nerfs to this build (unlike GGG - proven many many times) -> I proposed removal of these mechanics. This build would still work, it would still have its insane dps. It would still be tanky.

So it will still be OP basically?

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However you would have to plan on using flasks as everyone else do

HOMOGENIZATION

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you wouldn't have extra status alignments which you don't even aim for with this build.

Again this discussion isn't about status aliments, but you are completely neglecting every mention of why you can't just remove status aliments from crit.

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This build is not based around them and therefore it doesn't deserve them.

Its part of the mechanics of the game, what do you mean doesn't build around them. They utilize charges which includes power charges, power charges increase crit chance, they are investing at least partially into crit by investing into charges.

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On the other hand I would buff status alignments and sources of +chance to apply statu alignments in order to not screw up builds which want to utilize them.

Except crit builds don't grab chance to apply nodes really right now. What are you going to do add chance to apply status aliment to every single elemental damage node on the tree, can you not see how asinine that is?

The other option is to re-balance every single spell in the game.

So here is the choice, make extreme changes to spells\skill tree and remove flask mod and a poe unique mechanic (status aliment on crit) in order to fix this build OP has posted, even though he and others admit the build will still be strong, its simply not going to just get these bonus things for free as if that somehow makes the build more balanced.

My god read that statement and tell me that is what you want to do, because by saying you want to remove these things for 1 (basically 2) builds that aren't but a tiny bit of fraction of builds in PoE.

No one here can read that statement and say yes goetzjam that is what I want, I want to do something that effects more then almost anything else (except 2.0) in order to address this one (its technically 2) builds that are outliners and its because we can't think of anyway to balance it so we always just suggest the dumbest idea (laziest) instead.

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Vaal temple vuln double boss deathless? I dont know what else you want. Nobody would do that, nobody. Note that I dont mind seeing this map mod being doable, what I find weird tho is that only one build is capable of doing so.

Again in that particular instance its actually more beneficial for this build to have double boss then it is for it to not be. In terms of power yeah it looks good after 30+ ex in gear, but removing the flask doesn't do anything to effect the raw power of the build just weakens a defensive option for other builds. If given the choice GGG should always remove the offensive OPness of a build over the defensive nature as the defensive nature is less targeted and more likely to have a larger negative effect.

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goetzjam wrote:

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You don't know what you're talking about. BTW PoeDan79 is the guy who killed uber on tempest (not using this build), so he knows a thing or two about HC.

Why the fuck should anyone care what this guy thinks about your build, yes he did uber in tempest multiple times, but he did it with a completely different build that has no merit in this discussion at all. If he wants to pop in here and explain his opinion hes welcome to, but you can't and shouldn't be speaking in his behalf.

His opinion matters more than yours because 1) he understands HC better 2) he has tried the build. So let's stop talking about HC.

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What 2 people maybe up to 5, in your videos you get CHUCKED that isn't healthy to play that sort of build in a HC setting

Yeah I have videos of the hardest content this game has to offer, and I survive it. 95% of HC players never do stuff like vaal temple bosses, uber atziri, or core malachai. All they want to do is do T10-15 maps without dying, which is build does very well.

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Basically 1/2 of them are an absolute joke and if your build is suffering at the high end of maps and can't complete the challenge with 1 round of flask charges, tp out and get more. That was an intended function from day 1. However builds at the very top of the ladder don't need crutches like your 88 all res flask because they simply perform better without relying on it. Not only does the ladder indicate this but the popularity of the items and such that go with it do.

I spend 3 points to get 88 allres, and I'm free to invest the rest in damage. They have to spend more or suffer downsides in other parts of their build (saffell's).

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If you are activating 3-4 flask almost non stop manually because surgeons vs muscle memory of 1-2 flask you are more inclined to make a mistake on the 3-4 button presses then the 1-2.

You can't use non-surgeon flasks on muscle memory. Show me an SRSer who constantly uses rumi+ruby at uber atziri? They don't, they have to carefully think about when they will use their flasks. The thinking + execution is what gives rise to human error. I just press 1 2 3 any time I'm about to engage a pack without any thought. It's not hard to execute 1 2 3.

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Answer me these 2 questions OP:

Can your build be "fixed" without changing the surgeons flask mod? (even though previously OP builds that happened to be crit got fixed without removing the mod)

If not what true effect do you think will happen after the surgeon mod is removed for your build?

You can actually test this by just using perpetual flask mod in your slots. Let me know or better SHOW me how the build behaves after that change.

Yes you could fix coc discharge specifically by nerfing volls armor or amy or both.

But it's the mechanics that are OP, especially when combined.

If CoC discharge was nerfed specifically, then I could put these mechanics (surgeon flasks + vaal pact) on a scolds vms incinerate build or mjolner build and achieve similar results.

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His opinion matters more than yours because 1) he understands HC better 2) he has tried the build. So let's stop talking about HC.

Again speaking on behalf of him as if it would mean something.

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I spend 3 points to get 88 allres, and I'm free to invest the rest in damage. They have to spend more or suffer downsides in other parts of their build (saffell's).

But they have other strengths to compensate.

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Yes you could fix coc discharge specifically by nerfing volls armor or amy or both.

But it's the mechanics that are OP, especially when combined.

What if cyclone it much slower but much harder, would make it less useful for COC and still good for 2 handed builds. Less procs = less damage = less OPness.

If it was nerfed via my suggested way what else is there to nerf those remaining builds (which btw weren't nerfed, but buffed in 2.0)

I think GGG is fine with your and those builds above they require many many expensive pieces and don't break the game. Breaking the game is something among the levels of LLST\snap shotting\ect. Which is why I don't think surgeons will be removed (it might change if the indication of that flask mod is relative at all) but they for sure will not remove crit from status aliments.

Again you and a few others in this thread of fixated on nerfing a defensive option that your build uses instead of an offensive option. Make the build less powerful directly, not indirectly the amount of negatives that come from removing mechanics and interactions is far more then you can anticipate.

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Exiled_Wanderer wrote:

Pretty much only CoC builds can sustain Surgeon's flasks forever. Other crit builds don't crit anywhere near enough to regain all charges in the duration. (I'm sure you can find an exception, but most crit builds can't)

Flame Totem?
Mjolner?
Hell, even Molten Strike crit...
Other crit builds cant keep flasks all the time, but still recharge their Surgeon flasks very rapidly.


And keeping normal flasks up all the time, in any map is just a myth for vast majority of builds. And even if you can, flasks uptime while killing trash doent matter much - bosses are where it matters, and where you wont have it without OP Surgeon's mod.

Voll's chest for CoC discharge may provide serious DPS, but there are many things that provide great DPS is the game.
And surgeon's flasks provide insane defences for a build, that already has top-tier DPS (because of crit), and with minimal additional investments.

And it come against core Flask design - being something very useful and expendable, something that you use only when you really need it.

^^ I dont think totems give you the crit flask recharges but i could be wrong only looked at a couple of sites.

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goetzjam wrote:

I think GGG is fine with your and those builds above they require many many expensive pieces and don't break the game. Breaking the game is something among the levels of LLST\snap shotting\ect. Which is why I don't think surgeons will be removed (it might change if the indication of that flask mod is relative at all) but they for sure will not remove crit from status aliments.

Again you and a few others in this thread of fixated on nerfing a defensive option that your build uses instead of an offensive option. Make the build less powerful directly, not indirectly the amount of negatives that come from removing mechanics and interactions is far more then you can anticipate.

Changing cyclone to make it worse for CoC would be ok but only slight. They would have to do several of these slight nerfs to make a overall meaningful nerf. There are interesting wand barrage and bow frenzy/gmp/chain CoC dischargers in witch and shadow forum that wouldn't be affected by cyclone nerfs.

LLST was relatively broken because it was in a easier version of the game. CWDT+EC+IC, full power acuity, 5x the current leech, lower monster damage, reduced mana, coe pain attunement, and easier map mods. Wanders were considered almost as good as LLST, and they are relatively balanced now because of changes to those mechanics rather than direct to nerfs to ST. That's why the mechanics need to be targeted.

Whether offensive or defensive mechanics get nerfed doesn't matter. A build that wants to get L100 and great DPS needs both, so nerfing one will take away from the other by forcing the player to build differently.