OP mechanics: cast on crit, vaal pact, surgeon flasks [2 boss, vuln Vaal Temple DEATHLESS]

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goetzjam wrote:

Find this quote please. As far as I'm concerned status aliments and crit go 1\1 with spells, its very hard to find a spell based build that isn't crit and that invest purely in status aliments these days, especially because removal of reflect (for the most part)

Also don't you think that could be interpreted as crit = investment (mind blown)

I'm not going to search it since I don't care that much to make such effort... on top of that I'm pretty sure they won't change it anyway.

However if you want to search it on your own, they said that in manifesto explaining changes to formula for determination of shock duration. They said they want it to be harder to get shocks and want it to be unique and rewarding when u do so. NIce attempt - but failed one.

Yep I agree that crit is investment. Investment into doing insane dps, having granted status alignments without need to invest a damn thing into chance to apply whatever elemental status u want and permanent flask charges up. Certainly not bad investment.

BTW Your argument about people violating TOS by using macros is kinda... funny. Forcing player into smashing lets say 4 flask buttons instead of one wouldn't change a damn thing. Macro isn't problem... permanent charges is.

Why are there passives improving flask duration, flask charges recovery, chance to apply alignments when u get it all solved by just doing crits? It's just retarded.

Not going to argue any further. Player which wouldn't agree with this is either blind or play the build which would be nerfed. Period. Have a nice day.

Pretty much only CoC builds can sustain Surgeon's flasks forever. Other crit builds don't crit anywhere near enough to regain all charges in the duration. (I'm sure you can find an exception, but most crit builds can't)

On another note, you can sustain your flasks 99% of the time, including unique flasks, with a few passive point investsments. The only exception to this is Uber Atziri if she doesn't spawn adds after split phase, and Core malachai. Check Ghudda's flask build. In my own CI Reave build I play, I dropped a minor amount of DPS + ES in return for the flask nodes which gives me 99% uptime (again, 100% if you don't do Core malachai or Uber, which you typically don't do while leveling anyway. Meanwhile, I do ALL bosses outside of those 2, even at my current lvl of 98) on my Ruby, Topaz, Atziri's Promise, Rumi's and Taste of Hate flasks.
I have constant 88/88/88 res with 75/50 block + 39% phys converted to Cold, mitigated by 88%. I'd have 75% spell block as well if I didn't have access to a mirrored shield+amulet. Ofc my build is a "little" more expensive (3 mirrored items) since I'm melee attack based, but Ghudda's is a caster which can get very good results for far less investment.

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I'm not going to search it since I don't care that much to make such effort... on top of that I'm pretty sure they won't change it anyway.

Don't mention it as an argument if you aren't willing to link said post in the future, after I get done responding here I will quickly search for it, but won't spend much time on it.

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Yep I agree that crit is investment. Investment into doing insane dps, having granted status alignments without need to invest a damn thing into chance to apply whatever elemental status u want and permanent flask charges up. Certainly not bad investment.

Its part of the "crit kit" much like RT builds have various parts of their kit. Comparing raw DPS between a crit build and RT one is just asinine IMO as they both function on different level of gearing and one ultizes every single weapon mod, whereas the other doesn't. As a result though various RT builds have became increasingly popular and still strong despite the "bonuses" crit gets.

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BTW Your argument about people violating TOS by using macros is kinda... funny. Forcing player into smashing lets say 4 flask buttons instead of one wouldn't change a damn thing. Macro isn't problem... permanent charges is.

That statement is just ignorant. Flask charges are meant to be a resource and player interacted element in gaining a benefit when activated. My build that lets say has 2 elemental flask for a specific encounter instead of running all 3 and either a granite\jade can't compete directly against a build that uses LESS player interaction, but should require MORE to get MORE. If I spam 2 buttons for various things like armor\quicksilver, which IMO is quite common, but you hit 1 button to get 88 all res, movement speed and either evasion\armor then the power you get by hitting 1 button is more then you should be getting and you are abusing an un-intended game mechanic to gain an advantage. So this topic has EVERYTHING to due with the fact that you as a player should be clicking ALL flask buttons when you want the buff and not just 1 button, does the surgeon mod enable you to do it, sure, but is it allowed, no.

Again like always people are focusing on just removing something instead of fixing it. Start banning players that use these flask macros that are against the TOS, hell OP I challenge you to do your build without using one of these flask macros, I doubt its as fun when you have to spend every few seconds respamming all your flask keys.

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Why are there passives improving flask duration, flask charges recovery, chance to apply alignments when u get it all solved by just doing crits? It's just retarded.

Because it gives you an alternative option. Flask charges are different then status aliments, I hate it when people lump them together.

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Not going to argue any further.

Because your argument is awful, its even worst then OP's and other arguments made here. You think its acceptable to remove a mod in the game because people are using unallowed 3rd party tools to exploit it. You don't balance the game around exploits you start punishing players for using them.

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Player which wouldn't agree with this is either blind or play the build which would be nerfed. Period.

I don't play crit builds vary often, currently not playing a variation of his build, clearly you are blind to the arguements presented in this thread or don't care to read it.

It boils down you you wanting to use a GGG statement, but too lazy to find it so we can't see the exact context, you wanting to removing a mechanic because people use un-allowed macros to abuse them and remove status aliments because getting more damage is enough. Your arguments here might be the worst ones in the thread, that's saying a lot.

I agree with goetzjams on this topic... that's saying a lot (probably more than any argument I could add) ^^.

What page are OPs cahr/build/gear on ?

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Quantume wrote:

What page are OPs cahr/build/gear on ?

It's in his signature:

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1405842

@kcstar

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I agree with goetzjams on this topic... that's saying a lot (probably more than any argument I could add) ^^.

:D

Crazy discussion here. Anyway, there's only one problem here. Discharge. Period.

U can make perfect discharge build (almost any type) for a price of about mirror, what wrecks anything in the game and give u more dps and survivability than full mirrored setup of other builds.

That's just sick. Why it's like that? I dunno.

Maybe it's some kind of "power to the people" process (haha) or GGG just keeping it alive cos it's so laggy and unpleasant skill, so only minority can/want to use it.

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goetzjam wrote:

Because your argument is awful, its even worst then OP's and other arguments made here. You think its acceptable to remove a mod in the game because people are using unallowed 3rd party tools to exploit it. You don't balance the game around exploits you start punishing players for using them.

If you say so... your opinion about my arguments means nothing to me.

I never said that I want that mod to be removed because people use "3rd" party tools because 3rd party tools has nothing to do with this issue. Honestly I consider it quite INSANE that someone could blame macros to be the source of the issue here.

NOBODY needs to use macros when replenishing potential of flasks is limited as it should be. I doubt they were ever considered as permanent resource since their boosts are just insane. CoC let alone Mjollner were introduced much later than surgeon mod. I believe they were allways meant to be as utility boost, something people tend to call "ou-shit-button". Besides I can smash 3 buttons equally efficiently like 1 button, its just little bit more annoying.

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CRE_AGA wrote:

Crazy discussion here. Anyway, there's only one problem here. Discharge. Period.

U can make perfect discharge build (almost any type) for a price of about mirror, what wrecks anything in the game and give u more dps and survivability than full mirrored setup of other builds.

That's just sick. Why it's like that? I dunno.

Ofc Discharge is the issue... but what would you do with Discharge? Nerf it? Well, why not... nobody plays for example selfcast discharge (burning) since their epic nerf to prolif. That one was some EPIC fix to broken Flameblast btw.

Who knows what GGG thinks... It may be possible they don't like what became of CoC/Mjollner either but since they are slaves of majority, they wont dare to touch it. They will rather provide us with more options giving you similar results.

Personally I think Discharge is ok... CoC/Mjollner combo is problem and the fact how easy it is to gain charges and the fact that CoC/Mjollner discharge has ONLY benefits coming from huge synergy of several mechanics. It would be dumb to remove Volls or Romira or Discharge or whatever is used also in other ways. But you could remove some benefits (which possibly werent even supposed to synergize that well with this combo. I don't see any other possible fix to this issue. Would it piss off many people? Hell ye it would... and goetzjam would be first one crying on the forums. Whatever.

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If you say so... your opinion about my arguments means nothing to me.

Now we know that isn't true, you very much do care what I think about your arguments.

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I never said that I want that mod to be removed because people use "3rd" party tools because 3rd party tools has nothing to do with this issue. Honestly I consider it quite INSANE that someone could blame macros to be the source of the issue here.

Macros is only part of it, but again you can't read what I write except what seems like bits and pieces, don't worry if your a slow reader we will understand.;

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NOBODY needs to use macros when replenishing potential of flasks is limited as it should be.

Yet the build somehow is less fun and more likely able to screw up if you don't use just 1 button to apply the benefits. You can't deny that people use this 1 hit wonder with this mod, like I said I would doubt it if OP doesn't use it.

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I doubt they were ever considered as permanent resource since their boosts are just insane. CoC let alone Mjollner were introduced much later than surgeon mod.

Before Mjolner took off LLST was king and utilized this mod, yet they somehow balanced that without destroying just a benefit that the build had.

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I believe they were allways meant to be as utility boost, something people tend to call "ou-shit-button".

Except that doesn't work, you have to prepot in poe. Its more like I think ima take this damage so ima use this utility flask before I ever see the attack\animation.

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Besides I can smash 3 buttons equally efficiently like 1 button, its just little bit more annoying.

Yet it somehow still has a factor to play in here, if we remove the people that use the 1 hit button wonder stuff (or auto pot for that matter) then what are we left with 20 people doing this in temp leagues?

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Ofc Discharge is the issue... but what would you do with Discharge? Nerf it? Well, why not... nobody plays for example selfcast discharge (burning) since their epic nerf to prolif. That one was some EPIC fix to broken Flameblast btw.

Funny enough no matter how someone perceives your remarks here on the flameblast nerf its a clear indicator that you don't care about other builds or consequences as long as what you perceive is broken is destroyed.

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Who knows what GGG thinks... It may be possible they don't like what became of CoC/Mjollner either but since they are slaves of majority, they wont dare to touch it. They will rather provide us with more options giving you similar results.

Or you know you don't have to utilize the surgeons flask mod as its been stated multiple times you don't need to walk around with flask being activated all the time.

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Personally I think Discharge is ok... CoC/Mjollner combo is problem and the fact how easy it is to gain charges and the fact that CoC/Mjollner discharge has ONLY benefits coming from huge synergy of several mechanics. It would be dumb to remove Volls or Romira or Discharge or whatever is used also in other ways. But you could remove some benefits (which possibly werent even supposed to synergize that well with this combo. I don't see any other possible fix to this issue.

So because you fail to recognize any other option such as nerfing items the build depends on or other various changes you resort to one most likely to effect more builds? Are you really that narrow minded?

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Would it piss off many people? Hell ye it would... and goetzjam would be first one crying on the forums. Whatever.

I won't cry, I don't even have any plans to play a build like OPs because its only SC viable and I am going to focus on playing in HC temp leagues going forward. What I do however dislike is the notion of not caring at all about the side effects of people suggestions, moreso on status aliments then on surgeons mod, regardless fixing a problem the wrong way isn't a fix at all.

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goetzjam wrote:

don't worry if your a slow reader we will understand.;

like I said I would doubt it if OP doesn't use it.

So you're insulting Diphal and accusing me of violating ToS. Solid argument...

Sometimes you have good points, other times you just spout ignorance and insults (like when you tried to argue with me about SRS).

The fact that you think having I_NO on ignore is immature just tells me you're mostly trolling here.

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I won't cry, I don't even have any plans to play a build like OPs because its only SC viable and I am going to focus on playing in HC temp leagues going forward.

You don't know what you're talking about. BTW PoeDan79 is the guy who killed uber on tempest (not using this build), so he knows a thing or two about HC.

This is the third piece of evidence I have presented about this build being HC viable (people who play it on HC), meanwhile you haven't tried it and are still trying to talk trash.

Either way I presented my argument about why HC is boring and irrelevant to balance. You never countered my argument (SC: survive 99% of all situations + 150k DPS -> allows you to use multiple defense archetypes vs HC: 99.9% survival + 30k DPS -> funnels you into passive defense builds) and still keep spouting your line.

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Or you know you don't have to utilize the surgeons flask mod as its been stated multiple times you don't need to walk around with flask being activated all the time.

Yeah so perpetual and surgeons are equally powerful. Got it... What about the 6-7 examples of boss fights I gave that don't spawn adds? What about human error on activating non-surgeons flasks at the right time? Those don't matter? Come on man... Stop arguing nonsense.