OP mechanics: cast on crit, vaal pact, surgeon flasks [2 boss, vuln Vaal Temple DEATHLESS]

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MatrixFactor wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

I think GGG is fine with your and those builds above they require many many expensive pieces and don't break the game. Breaking the game is something among the levels of LLST\snap shotting\ect. Which is why I don't think surgeons will be removed (it might change if the indication of that flask mod is relative at all) but they for sure will not remove crit from status aliments.

Again you and a few others in this thread of fixated on nerfing a defensive option that your build uses instead of an offensive option. Make the build less powerful directly, not indirectly the amount of negatives that come from removing mechanics and interactions is far more then you can anticipate.

Changing cyclone to make it worse for CoC would be ok but only slight. They would have to do several of these slight nerfs to make a overall meaningful nerf. There are interesting wand barrage and bow frenzy/gmp/chain CoC dischargers in witch and shadow forum that wouldn't be affected by cyclone nerfs.

LLST was relatively broken because it was in a easier version of the game. CWDT+EC+IC, full power acuity, 5x the current leech, lower monster damage, reduced mana, coe pain attunement, and easier map mods. Wanders were considered almost as good as LLST, and they are relatively balanced now because of changes to those mechanics rather than direct to nerfs to ST. That's why the mechanics need to be targeted.

Whether offensive or defensive mechanics get nerfed doesn't matter. A build that wants to get L100 and great DPS needs both, so nerfing one will take away from the other by forcing the player to build differently.

The cyclone is benefiting from getting fortify, at least in cases of HC usage I suspect most HC variants will want that extra bit of safety. If the change to attackspeed makes it much slower your build will suffer greatly as attackspeed is literally one of the best ways to scale the ability and if you have less attackspeed you have less chances to get flask charges as well as do less damage. This is how you balance a mechanic\interaction for a specific build that is outside the scope, not just gut a mechanic because you can't comeup with something better.

The mechanics involved offensive nerfs, not defensive nerfs. The only defensive nerf that effects llst didn't happen until long after llst was out of the picture anyway.

In addition they did directly nerf ST and the wander variants were weaker, so they required less of a nerf.


Ultimately they never removed the mod despite during the time you could say it was an option because its better to not remove a mechanic that has been in the game for over 2 years (at that point) because of the extreme but rather deal with the extreme directly.

Saying whether offensive or defensive mechanics doesn't matter which gets nerfed is just a clear indication that you aren't looking at the bigger picture. Forcing a player to invest more into offensive options in order to clear as fast takes away from investing into defensive options, whether that is life\es or what have you. You've said yourself you always care more about DPS\clearspeed then you do surviability so hurt you where you care about it the most.

Incinerate is getting nerfed and while you might be able to sustain the VMS after you get going with tons of the jewels that are 2ish ex each its a much more expensive variant and I've seen people die with that build to dumb mistakes.

As for the mjolner version they already nerfed that with a legacy version of the item, so I don't think its anywhere near as powerful as you think it is anymore.

Less clearspeed = less power = less fun = less played = better balanced.

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goetzjam wrote:

Saying whether offensive or defensive mechanics doesn't matter which gets nerfed is just a clear indication that you aren't looking at the bigger picture. Forcing a player to invest more into offensive options in order to clear as fast takes away from investing into defensive options, whether that is life\es or what have you. You've said yourself you always care more about DPS\clearspeed then you do surviability so hurt you where you care about it the most.

You didn't understand me. I said the same thing: "nerfing one will take away from the other by forcing the player to build differently." How is that not clear?

Anyways let me reiterate with more detail: since I think a very good build clears very fast and has enough survivability to get L100, if either survivability or clearspeed is nerfed the build will be nerfed overall by forcing players to rebalance. For instance if surgeon flasks were removed I would have to redo my tree to get iron reflexes, and potentially consider a EV/ES or AR/ES shield that can't roll spell damage. Both would force me to give up a good chunk of damage.

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Ultimately the game shouldn't be balanced around builds getting to level 100 either as that is also the far extreme for most players. You will probably disagree with me here as well, but you are wrong.

First of all why are you assuming things about me and using that as a springboard for arguments? That's weak.

Second, anyone who's done it can tell you that getting to L100 simply involves not dying. If you don't die you can do it in 75-78 maps. As a result your argument implies the game shouldn't be balanced for HC. Thanks for finally seeing the light.

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You didn't understand me. I said the same thing: "nerfing one will take away from the other by forcing the player to build differently." How is that not clear?

If you look at your first sentence it contradicts what the second one says.

See "Whether offensive or defensive mechanics get nerfed doesn't matter" That literally goes against the statement that it does matter. That is why it isn't clear, had you left that sentence out it would be clear.

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Anyways let me reiterate with more detail: since I think a very good build clears very fast and has enough survivability to get L100, if either survivability or clearspeed is nerfed the build will be nerfed overall by forcing players to rebalance. For instance if surgeon flasks were removed I would have to redo my tree to get iron reflexes, and potentially consider a EV/ES or AR/ES shield that can't roll spell damage. Both would force me to give up a good chunk of damage.

But if cyclone was changed so you have less procs you would have to invest more into attackspeed to achieve the same clearspeed, what would you drop in order to achieve that?

Again you are fixated on removing something that is part of the game instead of addressing the problem. Stop that.

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If you don't die you can do it in 75-78 maps. As a result your argument implies the game shouldn't be balanced for HC. Thanks for finally seeing the light.

Rofl if anything it reaffirms my balance argument because you aren't going to get to level 100 doing anything but 78+ maps in a reasonable amount of time.


You failed to address so many points of my previous post and I'm not sure why. Again fixated on removing something because you believe its the only way to fix a problem when GGG has proven in the past it isn't the only way to fix a problem.

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goetzjam wrote:

But if cyclone was changed so you have less procs you would have to invest more into attackspeed to achieve the same clearspeed, what would you drop in order to achieve that?

Again you are fixated on removing something that is part of the game instead of addressing the problem. Stop that.

If cyclone was unusable for CoC discharge but good for other stuff I would probably try molten strike, barrage, or frenzy-gmp-chain. I wouldn't give up any more defenses from my tree, rather I would just accept worse clearspeed or abandon the build if it didn't have enough damage to do single targets reliably. I guess that would be a nerf that you couldn't build around, unlike removing surgeon flasks. However it wouldn't fix other 'broken' builds like immortal mjolners. So surgeon flasks are responsible for part of the problem, you can't say they're not just because other builds can't utilize them to their full potential.

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If you don't die you can do it in 75-78 maps. As a result your argument implies the game shouldn't be balanced for HC. Thanks for finally seeing the light.

Rofl if anything it reaffirms my balance argument because you aren't going to get to level 100 doing anything but 78+ maps in a reasonable amount of time.

Glad I made you ROFL, but actually at L99 the exp/time difference between L74-L79 maps is small, and the most cost efficient maps are L74-75. Source.

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You failed to address so many points of my previous post and I'm not sure why. Again fixated on removing something because you believe its the only way to fix a problem when GGG has proven in the past it isn't the only way to fix a problem.

LLST was never enabled by surgeon flasks because defenses were trivial then, but defenses are more important now and surgeon's flasks are more important as a result. In 1.1-1.3 you could run around with 4k life or 6k ES CWDT EC IC and vaal pact or acuities and never worry about anything. Also ST isn't balanced now, it's unplayable. You have to look at wanders to see good balance. For wanders OP mechanics were removed but then offensive passives were added on the tree. The way wanders are balanced now is that they have good clearspeed but they're squishy and have no single target. Nerfing both cyclone's APS and surgeon flasks (or the CoC gem or Vaal Pact) would put CoC discharge into a similar, more balanced, position.

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If cyclone was unusable for CoC discharge but good for other stuff I would probably try molten strike, barrage, or frenzy-gmp-chain. I wouldn't give up any more defenses from my tree, rather I would just accept worse clearspeed or abandon the build if it didn't have enough damage to do single targets reliably. I guess that would be a nerf that you couldn't build around, unlike removing surgeon flasks. However it wouldn't fix other 'broken' builds like immortal mjolners. So surgeon flasks are responsible for part of the problem, you can't say they're not just because other builds can't utilize them to their full potential.

I don't want cyclone to be unusable for COC i just want it to not be the automatic one to go for. You get free unwavering stance by using it so you should be doing less damage then the other COC counterparts.

As far as mjolner we've already addressed they DIRECTLY nerfed that in 2.0 with making it have a 30% proc chance instead of 50%.

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Glad I made you ROFL, but actually at L99 the exp/time difference between L74-L79 maps is small, and the most cost efficient maps are L74-75. Source.

Cost efficient and time efficient are 2 different things, in terms of leveling there isn't any point to be immortal if you are doing such low level content, you can probably clear faster with like vaal spark.

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LLST was never enabled by surgeon flasks because defenses were trivial then

Uber was though, even though I am not trying to directly make it relevant in this topic you and others always seem to bring that up.

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but defenses are more important now and surgeon's flasks are more important as a result.

Perhaps, but phys damage moreso then elemental, your build COULD get or use fortify if you want, whereas before you couldn't.

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In 1.1-1.3 you could run around with 4k life or 6k ES CWDT EC IC and vaal pact or acuities and never worry about anything. Also ST isn't balanced now, it's unplayable. You have to look at wanders to see good balance. For wanders OP mechanics were removed but then offensive passives were added on the tree. The way wanders are balanced now is that they have good clearspeed but they're squishy and have no single target.

I have to look at wanders when there are practically none out there, the only build I know in 2.0 that does COC with wand is that dried lake farming build, which is directly replaced by the vaal spark build.

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Nerfing both cyclone's APS and surgeon flasks (or the CoC gem or Vaal Pact) would put CoC discharge into a similar, more balanced, position.

Now you say nerfing instead of removing are you suggesting that surgeons should be a lessor chance to get flask charges on hit or did you just forget to say remove.

In terms of balance I would rather just hit it 1 time with a nerf instead of multiple times and obviously the offensive capabilities moreso then defensive options. If they didn't want the build to be accessible they could have just added the voll ammy card to the higher level map instead of allowing it to be farmed in a non map zone, they clearly want people to be able to play a combination of a build like this, which is why I say nerf the offensive a bit and say away from the larger mechanics that have survived a far more powerful crit meta.

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MatrixFactor wrote:

Second, anyone who's done it can tell you that getting to L100 simply involves not dying. If you don't die you can do it in 75-78 maps. As a result your argument implies the game shouldn't be balanced for HC. Thanks for finally seeing the light.

I can confirm it, have 100 lvl.

Re: why does no one on ladder play it?

Darkshrines SC rank 4 character thirsty_virgin.

I got to 95 on HC on this build before I died. I died to vaal temple boss when I messed it up aka user error. Did a long whirl and got ic triggered with 1 charge and stunlocked in the rain. Map had some extra dmg and something else I forgot already.

I did 4 or 5 ubers in sc after that and didnt die once to trio.

I only skipped Ele reflect, -max(because reflect rares) and cannot leech from enemies mods.

Other than that I did every map.

Here are some maps I did with boss included without any problems:

http://i.imgur.com/Gs7eEGm.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/TbJ2qCV.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/iYog8Kl.jpg


Why people dont play it in temp hc? Propably because its not AFK build. You gotta be offensive and leech so you survive. Not the easiest thing always to do if you play in parties when you cant see shit. Also takes some time to get geared to be good.

I can say that this is HC viable build. Sure, I played perma hc, but I didnt use any legacy items so it can work in temp league too.

Is this build OP? Maybe. Is it strong? Yes. Should it be nerfed? Maybe, I dont really give a damn. Im just gonna enjoy it while I can, hehe.

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MatrixFactor wrote:

Re: why does no one on ladder play it?

Darkshrines SC rank 4 character thirsty_virgin.

Actually much more play that build, even on ladder.

Poison arrow play more bcs require no gear.