OP mechanics: cast on crit, vaal pact, surgeon flasks [2 boss, vuln Vaal Temple DEATHLESS]

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MatrixFactor wrote:

For drawn-out boss fights you can't use regular flasks for the whole fight. As a result you can't rely on them for bosses, rather only for dangerous mobs in maps. However surgeon flasks can always be relied on to be up, so you can get all of your defense from these flasks.

And as far as I know the only drawn out boss fight where you need this for is atziri, which many many non crit builds do. (PA\incinereate\SRS)

So for the cases in which case you run out of flask you can either go kill some more mobs or refill flask in town.

Whats whit people agenst surgeon flasks, its not like all crit build have insane AoE and crazy CoC whit insane number of skills hits in same time.

Its mor a problem whit how skills worck then whit surgeon.
My crit cyclone need abouth 3-4 sec on single target before i get a usable flask so dont tell me my 95% crit is noot a good example, it be more likly that what ever you wher using is not balanced but shurly not a surgeon problem.

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MatrixFactor wrote:

For drawn-out boss fights you can't use regular flasks for the whole fight. As a result you can't rely on them for bosses, rather only for dangerous mobs in maps. However surgeon flasks can always be relied on to be up, so you can get all of your defense from these flasks.

You see, you try to argue with typical troll, they making fan with spread liars, real problem is ggg listed them more than any facts.

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goetzjam wrote:

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MatrixFactor wrote:

For drawn-out boss fights you can't use regular flasks for the whole fight. As a result you can't rely on them for bosses, rather only for dangerous mobs in maps. However surgeon flasks can always be relied on to be up, so you can get all of your defense from these flasks.

And as far as I know the only drawn out boss fight where you need this for is atziri, which many many non crit builds do. (PA\incinereate\SRS)

So for the cases in which case you run out of flask you can either go kill some more mobs or refill flask in town.

not all bosses have mobs, the scroll of tp is not a flask.


I think this is main trap most people keep falling into. You are ignoring the real issue here and using the symptoms of it as your reason to ignore it.

And the problem is that these mechanics simplify things too much.

Lets run the gambit.


Ill start with the quoted issue of flasks. normal flasks do not last long at all in extended fights without killing something. surgeon flasks do. That is an undeniable fact. Surgeons flask with proper crit specs do not run out ever.

But the common counter is oh you can just kill mobs (that might not exist) or portal out ( that use a finite resource or a risky skill). That is what we call complicated shit. and anyone with a tiny bit of engineering know how will tell you that complicated shit tends to break.


what if you miss click the portal? what if there arent enough mobs to keep the potions up? what if the act of refilling your flasks puts you in a position that gets your ass killed? what if the very distraction of worrying about your flasks gets your ass killed? All of that complicated crap is eliminated by surgeons.

spam the button , have full effect .. always.

To even think that normal flasks or portal usage can compare to 100% uptime surgeons flask abuse is inconceivable. It is an idea so unbelievably ludicrous that i am shocked people would still make such an outrageous claim.

It enables things like 88 all res. tell me what would you have to do to get 88 all res 100% up time without crit or surgeons. How many passives? how many specific unique items? how many auras? how much time and money would you need to waste to get 88 all res?

or just use 3 flasks with 100% up time and 1 critical unique piece that everyone and their grand mom are crafting every damn league in mass.


How many passives would you need to emulate being able to instantly fill your hp pool with some leech and vaal pact? we are talking your whole build vs a handful of nodes and gear mods.


how much would you need to invest to get 10k - 20k 100% up time armor? or just .. you know surgeons granite..


people need to stop arguing that the two things are on the same level just because there are examples of builds doing the same content as coc or vp. crit with these mechanics are borderline effortless compared to the mountain of shit people are failing to mention powering the alternatives in other build types.



It doesnt matter if there are builds that can do the same content as the coc build. what matters is can they do it as easily , as safely or as effortlessly?

and honestly after tasting a bit of the poison... that answer is hell no not even close.

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not all bosses have mobs,

Please list every boss in the game that doesn't have adds at one point or another to fill flask.

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the scroll of tp is not a flask.

No its not, but if all else fails its a useable method of recovery to fill flask.

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I think this is main trap most people keep falling into. You are ignoring the real issue here and using the symptoms of it as your reason to ignore it.

And the problem is that these mechanics simplify things too much.

In 1 sentence tell me what the real issue is here.

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Ill start with the quoted issue of flasks. normal flasks do not last long at all in extended fights without killing something. surgeon flasks do. That is an undeniable fact. Surgeons flask with proper crit specs do not run out ever.

What are the extended fights in Poe and more specifically what are the extended fights that don't have adds to refill flask. (I've already asked this question)

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But the common counter is oh you can just kill mobs (that might not exist) or portal out ( that use a finite resource or a risky skill). That is what we call complicated shit. and anyone with a tiny bit of engineering know how will tell you that complicated shit tends to break.

Its complicated to TP out, now that is a new level of stupid TBH. Its not complicated to TP out to refill flask, this tactic is used for most difficult boss fights starting with Dominus and now with the new act 4 bosses all the way to endgame mapping.

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what if you miss click the portal? what if there arent enough mobs to keep the potions up? what if the act of refilling your flasks puts you in a position that gets your ass killed? what if the very distraction of worrying about your flasks gets your ass killed? All of that complicated crap is eliminated by surgeons.

Well if you miss click a portal there are probably adds around to kill :D

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spam the button , have full effect .. always.

Spamming doesn't equate to more power though, maybe it allows for more room to make a mistake but it isn't like the effect you get from spamming stacks.

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To even think that normal flasks or portal usage can compare to 100% uptime surgeons flask abuse is inconceivable. It is an idea so unbelievably ludicrous that i am shocked people would still make such an outrageous claim.

The outrageous claim is that despite crit not even being that meta people still want to homogenize this aspect of the game because other games don't have these effects on crit, therefore PoE shouldn't have these effects either.

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It enables things like 88 all res. tell me what would you have to do to get 88 all res 100% up time without crit or surgeons. How many passives? how many specific unique items? how many auras? how much time and money would you need to waste to get 88 all res?

Because investing into crit is free, the fact is you mention other methods of achieving the same thing that could very well take less effort possibly net a full uptime of specific +max res without the need to spam a pot. Running around with 88 all res is mostly useless the game is designed in such a way that encounters are able to be planned for and at most you need 2 resistances higher then the standard cap.

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or just use 3 flasks with 100% up time and 1 critical unique piece that everyone and their grand mom are crafting every damn league in mass.

That build is dumpster in parties and requires a LOT of expensive gear to work properly. Its probably not even 1/100 builds being played, especially on hardcore as it lacks actual defenses and relies on those flask useage and high regen to work. Throw that build in a 78 vuln map and I doubt it can do it deathless, more importantly I doubt it can do it faster then any other meta build being used today.

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How many passives would you need to emulate being able to instantly fill your hp pool with some leech and vaal pact? we are talking your whole build vs a handful of nodes and gear mods.

This is a leech problem, one left over from 2.0, yet again most of the popular meta builds right now aren't even using leech.

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how much would you need to invest to get 10k - 20k 100% up time armor? or just .. you know surgeons granite..

That much armor doesn't require any additional nodes then what you would take for the left side of the tree anyway. With a 2k armor chest and ~500 armor pieces in other slots you can surpass 20k easily without using a flask, which would increase it more.

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It doesnt matter if there are builds that can do the same content as the coc build. what matters is can they do it as easily , as safely or as effortlessly?

If this playstyle was so much better why is it so little of the population doing it? If it was so easy why isn't this the meta build instead of alternatives. If its so easy why would people bother trying to get these meta mods on staffs and bows if they can just 6 link a chest and grab various uniques to make it work.

Because it doesn't behave in this "unbeatable" god behavior, not to mention your example is 1-2 variations of crit, that could be tuned down and not destroy other various methods of crit builds that do use the mechanic.

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and honestly after tasting a bit of the poison... that answer is hell no not even close.

Care to explain this.

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goetzjam wrote:

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not all bosses have mobs,

Please list every boss in the game that doesn't have adds at one point or another to fill flask.

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the scroll of tp is not a flask.

No its not, but if all else fails its a useable method of recovery to fill flask.

Village Ruin, Shipyard, Courtyard, Excavation, Colosseum don't spawn any adds.

Shrine, Palace, Core, and Abyss spawn adds but only at fixed intervals, so there's no chance you can have 100% multiflask uptime.

If you're playing in a party you can't spend extra portals to maps just to refill your flasks. It's almost like saying surgeon flasks aren't OP because you can alt-f4... (That's basically my argument for why armor and lightning coil aren't OP, so maybe there's something to it.)

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That build is dumpster in parties and requires a LOT of expensive gear to work properly. Its probably not even 1/100 builds being played, especially on hardcore as it lacks actual defenses and relies on those flask useage and high regen to work. Throw that build in a 78 vuln map and I doubt it can do it deathless, more importantly I doubt it can do it faster then any other meta build being used today.

If this playstyle was so much better why is it so little of the population doing it? If it was so easy why isn't this the meta build instead of alternatives. If its so easy why would people bother trying to get these meta mods on staffs and bows if they can just 6 link a chest and grab various uniques to make it work.

Because it doesn't behave in this "unbeatable" god behavior, not to mention your example is 1-2 variations of crit, that could be tuned down and not destroy other various methods of crit builds that do use the mechanic.

You clearly have no experience with CoC discharge. How can you say it would be dumpstered in a 78 map when I show you vaal temple double boss with vuln deathless..? I was doing by far the most damage in any party in warbands league, and even most parties in standard where people have mirrored weapons. I was also easily able to do beyond bosses and map bosses whereas most other builds, including meta ones like cyclone, SRS, and most incinerators would have to hide or leave. I'm talking 80-82 map rotations here, so basically people who know what they're doing and have very good gear. One guy even hosted free 82 maps for me; at first he was helping fight (reaver), but after one map he realized he was doing no damage in comparison so he just put on exp gear and let me carry him.

I don't know why so little of the population is doing it, but if you look at the feedback in my thread it's mostly "wow I tried it, and this really needs to be nerfed." Also you can find testimonies from several people playing this in both perma HC and temp HC.

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Village Ruin, Shipyard, Courtyard, Excavation, Colosseum don't spawn any adds.

Shrine, Palace, Core, and Abyss spawn adds but only at fixed intervals, so there's no chance you can have 100% multiflask uptime.

If you're playing in a party you can't spend extra portals to maps just to refill your flasks. It's almost like saying surgeon flasks aren't OP because you can alt-f4... (That's basically my argument for why armor and lightning coil aren't OP, so maybe there's something to it.)

LC\armor are always working effects that don't rely on hitting any buttons to work. In terms of cant leave because you are in a party, these types of builds are what people consider cancer builds and typically avoid partying with, in addition kills done from allies help fill your flask as well.


The shipyard boss has always been a joke and will always be a joke I think. You don't need +max fire res for him.

Village ruin is IIR all physical\bleed damage so elemental max res isn't helpful and other builds that don't utilize crit can have similar uptime with granite flask if they feel its necessary.

Courtyard is similar to shipyard, it also has various adds in the area to at least fill your charges during the fight.

Excavation and colosseum both have bosses in a specific area and require single target DPS for the most part because of lack of adds.

The most common point to look at from your example above, basically not elemental damage, which salty was trying to point out that was the most broken aspect of the unlimited flask charge useage.

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You clearly have no experience with CoC discharge. How can you say it would be dumpstered in a 78 map when I show you vaal temple double boss with vuln deathless..? I was doing by far the most damage in any party in warbands league, and even most parties in standard where people have mirrored weapons. I was also easily able to do beyond bosses and map bosses whereas most other builds, including meta ones like cyclone, SRS, and most incinerators would have to hide or leave. I'm talking 80-82 map rotations here, so basically people who know what they're doing and have very good gear. One guy even hosted free 82 maps for me; at first he was helping fight (reaver), but after one map he realized he was doing no damage in comparison so he just put on exp gear and let me carry him.

Again you mention one variation of crit, which you think is broken. Why is the fix to remove a flask mod and aliments and simply not to nerf the combination\access of your particular build?

I don't see that video relink it.

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I don't know why so little of the population is doing it, but if you look at the feedback in my thread it's mostly "wow I tried it, and this really needs to be nerfed." Also you can find testimonies from several people playing this in both perma HC and temp HC.

That build would be neigh impossible without vegan daggers, so why not just remove that or make it have a downside instead of nerfing complete playstyles and mechanics that aren't actually OP?

Funny enough your you can't even link a video of you doing uber atziri yourself to help highlight the 2 weaknesses of the build, single target damage (you even listed this in your post) and its pretty glass cannon-y.


Make your build in HC and then you can talk, until then your experiences in SC don't matter much in my perspective in terms of game balance.

Ultimately everything that is "broken" in terms of discharge goes back to:



Again its limited in nature and not possible for everyone, your build isn't as strong without many aspects of gear that is simply out of reach for most PoE players. Just 1 piece, either a 6 link or the ammy would be a whole leagues worth of work, let alone multiple multimodded pieces and multiple master modded gear. That is the reason why people aren't doing it, you even said yourself don't do this build first.

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goetzjam wrote:

Please list every boss in the game that doesn't have adds at one point or another to fill flask.

a multitude of specific map bosses dont spawn minions. they spawn with a finite number of minions . but once saide minions are gone , the well then dries up. but even bosses with mobs can have specific criteria for spawning them that cannot always be counted on.

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No its not, but if all else fails its a useable method of recovery to fill flask.

the point is that it is a separate mechanic you must use that is unnecessary for a high crit high aps build

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In 1 sentence tell me what the real issue is here.

"try juggling with 1 ball ... easy right?.... now juggle with 2 , now 3, now 5, now 10, now 11, now 30..."

1 ball = a crit build using surgeons. you pop a flask when you want, a simple action. to get the same thing you need to add more and more mechanics. more and more balls... the end result might be comparable but that is ignoring the fact that one is a hell of alot more efficient to pull off than the other.

The only real downside to specific coc builds is a tedious levelling process and the reliance on a handful of exceptionally desirable unique pieces. Really if coc/ crit wasnt popular as hell then xyz wouldnt always be full of 6l voll protector rejects every league.

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Its complicated to TP out, now that is a new level of stupid TBH. Its not complicated to TP out to refill flask, this tactic is used for most difficult boss fights starting with Dominus and now with the new act 4 bosses all the way to endgame mapping.

You know walking is technically a pretty damn easy thing to do too once you learn how. but damn it if people dont some times trip and fall on their faces.

just because you can tp out 100000 times doesnt mean you will always do so correctly. It is an extra thing you add to the pile to complicate things that the crit build doesnt have to worry about nearly as often.

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Spamming doesn't equate to more power though, maybe it allows for more room to make a mistake but it isn't like the effect you get from spamming stacks.

the act of spamming only gives 100% up time. what gives more power is the thing you are managing to keep up 100% of the time. tell me what gear set up or passive set up other than the one we are talking about can give you 88 resist all 100% of the time?

and 88 all res 100% of the time statically tankier than not having 88% 100% of the time therefore it is more power. that much should be obvious

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The outrageous claim is that despite crit not even being that meta people still want to homogenize this aspect of the game because other games don't have these effects on crit, therefore PoE shouldn't have these effects either.

using popularity to determine balance is not a great idea. A lot of perfectly balanced things got ruined because of that , and alot of broken things got ignored because of that.

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Because investing into crit is free, the fact is you mention other methods of achieving the same thing that could very well take less effort possibly net a full uptime of specific +max res without the need to spam a pot. Running around with 88 all res is mostly useless the game is designed in such a way that encounters are able to be planned for and at most you need 2 resistances higher then the standard cap.

All of this is unnecessary,but that is again not the point. The point is never "can you beat it" it is how fast and easily can you beat it.

basically the current situation is exactly like saying the 1.5 million dps cod burned miscreations nonsense was fine because a melee build could also do the highest ilevel content.

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That build is dumpster in parties and requires a LOT of expensive gear to work properly. Its probably not even 1/100 builds being played, especially on hardcore as it lacks actual defenses and relies on those flask useage and high regen to work. Throw that build in a 78 vuln map and I doubt it can do it deathless, more importantly I doubt it can do it faster then any other meta build being used today.

didnt the op do a vuln map
Also why are you bringing up hardcore? Hardcore is an inherently different meta with different priorities.

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This is a leech problem, one left over from 2.0, yet again most of the popular meta builds right now aren't even using leech.

well leech was one of the mechanics influenced by vaal pact which is mentioned in the op

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If this playstyle was so much better why is it so little of the population doing it? If it was so easy why isn't this the meta build instead of alternatives. If its so easy why would people bother trying to get these meta mods on staffs and bows if they can just 6 link a chest and grab various uniques to make it work.

because it is boring? would you bother playing a build that is so powerful nothing actually excites you anymore?

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Because it doesn't behave in this "unbeatable" god behavior, not to mention your example is 1-2 variations of crit, that could be tuned down and not destroy other various methods of crit builds that do use the mechanic.

if you are heavily reliant on these mechanics( to the point where it cant be changed)in the first place then you build should .. die.

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Care to explain this.

i ran with people who did coc /crit builds. you know that bit about not being good in groups... bullshit.. just saying. after the first 2 hours of being single handedly carried into high maps by 1 -2 crit builds (in a full party) i stopped playing poe and started watching netflix.

It was complete poison and has completely ruined my outlook on party play forever.

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"try juggling with 1 ball ... easy right?.... now juggle with 2 , now 3, now 5, now 10, now 11, now 30..."

1 ball = a crit build using surgeons. you pop a flask when you want, a simple action. to get the same thing you need to add more and more mechanics. more and more balls... the end result might be comparable but that is ignoring the fact that one is a hell of alot more efficient to pull off than the other.

I can't really juggle with 1 ball, so :(

You are saying that the arguments I've used are too simpleminded how is this one not too simplified. Every build has weaknesses and strengths, perhaps the problem with surgeons could be remedied by making more then just 4 prefixes available for utility flask. Perhaps its already fixed by adding more unique flask that require a different method to gain flask charges.

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The only real downside to specific coc builds is a tedious levelling process and the reliance on a handful of exceptionally desirable unique pieces. Really if coc/ crit wasnt popular as hell then xyz wouldnt always be full of 6l voll protector rejects every league.

But it really isn't full of failed 6 links, at least not in HC there is only 2 5 links and 0 6 links for sale. In SC there is a total of 23, with 2 of them being 6 links and a couple of corrupted ones. In terms of popularity that really doesn't seem that high.

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You know walking is technically a pretty damn easy thing to do too once you learn how. but damn it if people dont some times trip and fall on their faces.

Rofl that is your counter arrangement to TPing out to refill, if you need to for a boss\specific encounter.

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just because you can tp out 100000 times doesnt mean you will always do so correctly. It is an extra thing you add to the pile to complicate things that the crit build doesnt have to worry about nearly as often.

So just because you can carelessly spam a few flask that makes it OP because either using a macro to hit all your flask buttons (lets be real I doubt the majority of people that play that build manually hit each key individually) makes it somehow better, when most of the game isn't even about high elemental damage, especially after the changes in 2.0. ES builds are super glass cannon.

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the act of spamming only gives 100% up time. what gives more power is the thing you are managing to keep up 100% of the time. tell me what gear set up or passive set up other than the one we are talking about can give you 88 resist all 100% of the time?

You can spam your flask when you need them you don't have to walk around with 88 max res the whole game unless your build is too weak to take the unmitigated portion of damage.

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and 88 all res 100% of the time statically tankier than not having 88% 100% of the time therefore it is more power. that much should be obvious

Not if you are trading off by having a weaker build to other various things. 1 shots from physical damage, chaos damage degen, vuln, ect can all cause issues for builds that rely on crit flask charges, you only have 5 flask slots.

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using popularity to determine balance is not a great idea. A lot of perfectly balanced things got ruined because of that , and alot of broken things got ignored because of that.

Give some examples if you want. In terms of this discussion its only one factor of many that proves to the flask mod not being the issue, its an intended game design function and simply put cannot be removed at this point.

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All of this is unnecessary,but that is again not the point. The point is never "can you beat it" it is how fast and easily can you beat it.

Ok if you beat it fast enough the gaining charges from crits isn't important then is it. Your argument here is countered with the argument.

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basically the current situation is exactly like saying the 1.5 million dps cod burned miscreations nonsense was fine because a melee build could also do the highest ilevel content.

In terms of speed\cost we both know that wasn't true. Burning miscreations in that manner was not an intended game mechanic, not to mention you that was the prime of the spapshotting abuse meta, whereas this is a flask mod from basically day 1.

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didnt the op do a vuln map
Also why are you bringing up hardcore? Hardcore is an inherently different meta with different priorities.

Because the game should be balanced first and foremost by hardcore, because some SC people that never have to worry about loosing anything ever can do certain "broken builds" and the part that makes it broken is NOT the part that is being discussed then you have to look at the overall picture and say what do we need to do to fix this one thing that this one particular set of players is able to do.

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because it is boring? would you bother playing a build that is so powerful nothing actually excites you anymore?

You completely missed the point of my statement.

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if you are heavily reliant on these mechanics( to the point where it cant be changed)in the first place then you build should .. die.

So any crit caster build should just die because these builds that don't manually cast anything is destroying it for the rest of the game. No destroy the outliner not the baseline.

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i ran with people who did coc /crit builds. you know that bit about not being good in groups... bullshit.. just saying. after the first 2 hours of being single handedly carried into high maps by 1 -2 crit builds (in a full party) i stopped playing poe and started watching netflix.

Yeah I don't really have performance issues even playing the mjolner character on standard, put 1 single person in a group of 3-4 people and I might as well be looking at a picture book in terms of frames. Its literally eye cancer to play with. Is the damage OK, sure because they have mobs to hit, to proc more eye cancer.

Again with SC things where you don't care about the side effects of death that much.

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MatrixFactor wrote:

You clearly have no experience with CoC discharge. How can you say it would be dumpstered in a 78 map when I show you vaal temple double boss with vuln deathless..? I was doing by far the most damage in any party in warbands league, and even most parties in standard where people have mirrored weapons. I was also easily able to do beyond bosses and map bosses whereas most other builds, including meta ones like cyclone, SRS, and most incinerators would have to hide or leave. I'm talking 80-82 map rotations here, so basically people who know what they're doing and have very good gear. One guy even hosted free 82 maps for me; at first he was helping fight (reaver), but after one map he realized he was doing no damage in comparison so he just put on exp gear and let me carry him.

I don't know why so little of the population is doing it, but if you look at the feedback in my thread it's mostly "wow I tried it, and this really needs to be nerfed." Also you can find testimonies from several people playing this in both perma HC and temp HC.

He know, but he having fan with pretending like he not.
He just trolling, dont waste your time.

He saw your vid and know how OP surgeons and coc, but still trolling here, it more important to him.