OP mechanics: cast on crit, vaal pact, surgeon flasks [2 boss, vuln Vaal Temple DEATHLESS]

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Only voll's is expensive among those. Also you can think whatever you want, and I personally don't care about HC (because of the 99.9% survival + 30k DPS vs 99% survival + 150k DPS argument), but there are people playing this build on HC. Clearly other (potentially more experienced) HC players think it is viable.

One dude doesn't count especially when he doesn't contribute to this conversation, I can say @i_no agrees with me just because she isn't disagreeing with you explicitly here, that doesn't mean I'm more right or your wrong.

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goetzjam wrote:

If they want to live and have the best possible solo clearspeed and survability, I don't think most would choose your build. Its actually quite clear they won't as the top of the SC ladder would be full of people doing what you do. Thats not even counting the HC ladder.

However, if you'd like to give me your gear I can try it for you and perhaps that can persuade you into trying something else. :P

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Again, as I answered to the other guy, bringing races into the discussion is somewhat pointless. Obviously you can't play a build that takes 10 days to gear up if you could be L98-99 by then by playing PA, incinerate, SRS, vaal spark or cyclone. Just like you wouldn't seriously play something that's not flame totem/firestorm trap for a 1-70 race (unless you're Helmann).

How many players do you think are doing a variation of your build (utilizing the same key pieces) in SC temp leagues?

Again if I'm going to pick a build to invest into in a HC league I for sure wouldn't pick one that relies on spamming various buttons constantly and spikes extremely hard. I will use one of the meta builds that defenses work without as much player interaction.

Even if everyone had the ability to gear your character, although I think we've established that isn't feasable its still not being done in when people can do it as there are other builds then yours, despite your inability to want to play anything else (now that you've hit 100)

How much less powerful is your build with 10 less points? 20 less points? 10 less exalts\what about 20 less?

Well, I guess that everyone knows coc discharge is OP as hell... however it is quite annoying performance and visibility breaker. That might be reason why it became less common. Maybe even because many players tried it for some time already and now they want to move on.

However as a standard player, I still see coc quite frequently.

When u ask me, secondary benefits of critical strikes like surgeon mod and granted status alignments should be removed from the game. When u are aiming for a crit build, increased damage from crit multiplier is main benefit and should be ONLY benefit. Having free status alignments and permanent flask charges on top of that is quite unfair

However, I doubt they would ever dare to remove it. Can u imagine that rain of tears from all kiddos running their coc discharge? Nobody have balls to piss off so many fanboys.

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Diphal wrote:

Well, I guess that everyone knows coc discharge is OP as hell... however it is quite annoying performance and visibility breaker. That might be reason why it became less common. Maybe even because many players tried it for some time already and now they want to move on.

However as a standard player, I still see coc quite frequently.

When u ask me, secondary benefits of critical strikes like surgeon mod and granted status alignments should be removed from the game. When u are aiming for a crit build, increased damage from crit multiplier is main benefit and should be ONLY benefit. Having free status alignments and permanent flask charges on top of that is quite unfair

However, I doubt they would ever dare to remove it. Can u imagine that rain of tears from all kiddos running their coc discharge? Nobody have balls to piss off so many fanboys.

Have you read any of the arguments in the thread or just throwing out your .02?

Status aliments on crit is there mainly for spells, you simply can't remove that mechanic without re-balancing every single spell in the game.

I've beated why surgeons mod isn't that powerful in the grand scheme of things all over this thread, feel free to read those and come back with an argument.

This isn't about being unfair or fair, unlike most other games GGG wanted PoE to have interesting mechanics that gave crits something else in addition to "more" damage. This makes poe unqiue and removing it homogenizes the game (which is NOT good)


But like usual people chiming in without reading any of the thread and just giving their .02, thats fine but its annoying to keep a conversation going and progressing when people like you put it back a few pages.

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goetzjam wrote:

One dude doesn't count especially when he doesn't contribute to this conversation, I can say @i_no agrees with me just because she isn't disagreeing with you explicitly here, that doesn't mean I'm more right or your wrong.

I have I_NO ignored and can't see any of their posts or quotes. You can't say one dude doesn't count. If you read my thread there are multiple people doing it on HC. Again, I'm coming from a position of knowledge and experience, and you're trying to argue with me from a position of ignorance and speculation. In this case you should be the dude that doesn't count.

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goetzjam wrote:

How many players do you think are doing a variation of your build (utilizing the same key pieces) in SC temp leagues?

Even if everyone had the ability to gear your character, although I think we've established that isn't feasable its still not being done in when people can do it as there are other builds then yours, despite your inability to want to play anything else (now that you've hit 100)

How much less powerful is your build with 10 less points? 20 less points? 10 less exalts\what about 20 less?

How have we established that it's not feasible to gear when I linked you a guy who was doing uber in 10days (the 1MSC guy) and another who had it ready in two weeks in the 5WHC? You are wrong here based on evidence. It is not a build that is harder to gear than SRS or PA with a 6L +3, potentially cheaper than those in HC.

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Again if I'm going to pick a build to invest into in a HC league I for sure wouldn't pick one that relies on spamming various buttons constantly and spikes extremely hard. I will use one of the meta builds that defenses work without as much player interaction.

This is literally why I said HC is boring: you build to survive game crashes, lags, and disconnects, because that's when you need "defense without player interaction." You really can't challenge a build that can get 100 and do 0-1 death core/uber on its survivability. Again, 30k DPS + 97allres + 70k armor < 150k DPS + 92 allres + 11k armor IMO, but not on HC.

And the difference is that one only relies on surgeon flasks + vaal pact for defense while the other gets iron reflexes, L23 auras, aura effect nodes, and gimps its damage (RT mjolner does more damage than crit mjolner) just for the sake of having surgeon flasks.

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I have I_NO ignored and can't see any of their posts or quotes.

Well thats not very mature of you.

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How have we established that it's not feasible to gear when I linked you a guy who was doing uber in 10days (the 1MSC guy) and another who had it ready in two weeks in the 5WHC? You are wrong here based on evidence. It is not a build that is harder to gear than SRS or PA with a 6L +3, potentially cheaper than those in HC.

Yeah that isn't the case.

I'll just agree to disagree with you at this point.

Surgeon's Flasks are fucking OP.
Your build just abuses this, as many other builds do.
Flasks were intended to be expendable, but with Surgeon and certain builds you can keep them indefitely up. This gay mechanics should gone.
Surgeon prefix should be changed into "on kill" mechanics, it's clear as day.

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goetzjam wrote:

Have you read any of the arguments in the thread or just throwing out your .02?

Status aliments on crit is there mainly for spells, you simply can't remove that mechanic without re-balancing every single spell in the game.

I've beated why surgeons mod isn't that powerful in the grand scheme of things all over this thread, feel free to read those and come back with an argument.

This isn't about being unfair or fair, unlike most other games GGG wanted PoE to have interesting mechanics that gave crits something else in addition to "more" damage. This makes poe unqiue and removing it homogenizes the game (which is NOT good)


But like usual people chiming in without reading any of the thread and just giving their .02, thats fine but its annoying to keep a conversation going and progressing when people like you put it back a few pages.

All your mentioned "arguments" are subjetive feeling/opinion... same as mine. I just don't agree with you.

Critical strike has waaay bigger damage and everyone who goes for crits do that because of dmg in the first place. Status alignments are just additional benefits. Funny thing is that in case of coc/mjollners they dont even care about status alignments since their dps is so insane they just care if mobs are frozen/shocked or not.

Yes removing status alignments and surgeon mod would require some tweaking but this could be said about any change. According to me it would be better to just remove it and boost regular passives with chance to apply status alignments. GGG said themselves that they want status alignments to provide unique game experience which is rewarding when u SPECIALIZE in it. Obviously addition of few meh clusters wasn't enough. Why? Because everyone prefers crits and therefore dps while they get free elemental statuses.

Also crit itself automatically apply all statuses from all elemental sources you do with single hit, pathetic passives with +5% chance to shock wont do that for you if you are doing both cold and lightning damage with your hits.

And surgeons... well it wouldn't be problem without coc/mjollner builds but hey, these builds exist and their abuse of surgeons is just pathetic. It was same back in the days when banana throwers were popular. Anyone who can deal tons of hits/crits will easily abuse this mechanic. I wouldn't mind it they would lose something in return when they choose to do trillion of mini hits (something like lower dps, survivability or something) but it is just pure profit at these days. Which is wrong.

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You can argue many builds have a good portion of set up rather than execution but in this particular case i am arguing that certain crit builds take this to the extreme.

Which is why I'm asking for others to look at this extreme version of the build and view it as the out-liner, not the baseline. This mod has many chances to be removed in the past with far more broken builds then what we see now, yet it somehow still made it through despite the nerfs to those builds.

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fun fact the most popular low mid value unique for me to sell in new leagues is volls protector by a massive margin.

What do you mean by this, you find them and sell them or do you do something to them first? Do you buy unlinked ones and work on it.

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it takes several steps and condenses them into one. even with a macro to hit all of your flasks you still need to take in to account when said flasks have charges and when to use them vs not having to worry at all.

You are saying you have to take into account this without surgeons, but with it you don't. Well thats obvious if you are always hitting and either setup an auto pot macro (not allowed) or set up a spam all pots macro with 1 button (again not allowed) then it boils down to a specific type of playstyle that doesn't want to look at anything and just m2 across the whole map. Yet it doesn't give crit builds this naturally OPness, especially if you consider surgeons builds actually not using unallowed methods to activate flask.

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Not the point , again you are thinking in terms of "enough" get out of that mind set because it wont serve you in this argument. enough is not the point. When considering things that are over performing they are , by definition, blowing right past the "enough" mind set.

That isn't a valid argument.

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yeah you dont need 88 all res all the time, having temporary buff to 88 of one or 2 is "enough" But that is not the same as saying temporary 88 is as powerful as 88% uptime all res. One relies more on human input .. which is prone to error.

They BOTH under every circumstance should rely on human element, if you are saying that surgeons flask mod is OP because people abuse macros that activate multiple flask either on a cooldown or on a specific button press, well GGG cannot and should not remove the mod simply because people are breaking the TOS. They should BAN those players, not punish ones for using the mechanic as intended.

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Fast and Easy go hand in hand. Both in excess are an issue. Dont use one balance issue to excuse another one please.

Boss fights in ARPGs shouldn't be like MMO raid bosses, they should be a specific challenge that takes skill moreso then gear to overcome. Good example would be crema piety, avoid the fire of death and sometimes if you want to play safer you grab a fire res flask to ensure that if you do take damage its mitigated further.

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bug or intended game mechanic. the only real difference between those two concepts is one was intended and the other was not. but the result is the same, a mechanic over performing. Devs can be wrong.. they are people too you know..

Its kinda far fetched at this point to call GGG wrong on surgeons mod or status aliment for crit, its been in the game for a very very long time. It doesn't utilize anything that wasn't a clear intended function from day one.

As easily it is for you to say GGG could be wrong on this, its that much easier to say you and anyone that things GGG is wrong on this is not reading a single thing I type. If previous outperforming crit builds are utilizing mechanics that seem broken, then you fix those builds, you don't nerf something that build is using. Best example right now would be iron will, does GGG nerf that because quite a few incinerate builds are ultizing it or do they nerf the skill gem its most broken with?

I'm actually much more concerned with the people saying status aliments should be removed from crit, because the whole game's spells ARE DESIGNED around being able to apply aliments and not only would require a redesign from the ground up, but would ultimately be one more step to the homogenization of PoE.

I personally think that if GGG were going to remove the surgeons flask, not that they should or would they would have to re-balance ALL caster classes defensive options, hell even some ranged builds would have issues. There simply isn't any defensive options to really invest into from a HC standpoint for those builds, yes some people do acro, but they almost always get a lightning coil. MOM is currently only really possible with pledge, even then its a fraction of what it used to be.

Ultimately it isn't as simple as just removing the flask mod and then OP's build is balanced, especially for SC. Removing the mod will just move the next best mod up in line and encourage a more DPS oriented playstyle to mitigate the chances of getting hit, but ultimately it won't effect the raw power of the build, which defeats the purpose of removing the mod when there are better ways to address balance then that, as GGG has shown us that in the past.




Sorry, you are just wrong, again I've explained why above.


@diphal

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Yes removing status alignments and surgeon mod would require some tweaking

Understatement of the year goes to this comment. It requires the complete rework of EVERY SINGLE SPELL in the game.

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but this could be said about any change.

Not the same, nothing ever purposed to fix a problem has ever gotten any real traction over the last year at least in regards to "just fix all spells after you remove these basically day 1 mechanics"

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According to me it would be better to just remove it and boost regular passives with chance to apply status alignments. GGG said themselves that they want status alignments to provide unique game experience which is rewarding when u SPECIALIZE in it.

Find this quote please. As far as I'm concerned status aliments and crit go 1\1 with spells, its very hard to find a spell based build that isn't crit and that invest purely in status aliments these days, especially because removal of reflect (for the most part)

Also don't you think that could be interpreted as crit = investment (mind blown)

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Obviously addition of few meh clusters wasn't enough. Why? Because everyone prefers crits and therefore dps while they get free elemental statuses.

Because the game doesn't reward just applying the status aliement, plus they only added like 10% across the entire tree. No one wants to grab the subpar nodes leading up to them and they are placed in basically just random places in the tree which you wouldn't path to. About the only one someone would consider investing into is burn, but after the removal of or rather the destruction of burn prolif thats fairly pointless.

You are looking at the problem as if these are the only 2 ways you can fix the crit vs non crit argument, it clearly isn't as GGG has avoided doing this for basically 3 years.

Like I said above removing surgeons flask doesn't remove the raw power from OP's build, which is ultimately why this discussion is focusing on the WRONG parts. He thinks his build is actually achievable for any decent amount of players, while its definitely more accessible then LLST was, its power is no where near that level, its cancer to play with and IMO its not HC viable.

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Diphal wrote:

All your mentioned "arguments" are subjetive feeling/opinion...

Critical strike has waaay bigger damage and everyone who goes for crits do that because of dmg in the first place. Status alignments are just additional benefits. Funny thing is that in case of coc/mjollners they dont even care about status alignments since their dps is so insane they just care if mobs are frozen/shocked or not.

Yes removing status alignments and surgeon mod would require some tweaking but this could be said about any change. According to me it would be better to just remove it and boost regular passives with chance to apply status alignments. GGG said themselves that they want status alignments to provide unique game experience which is rewarding when u SPECIALIZE in it. Obviously addition of few meh clusters wasn't enough. Why? Because everyone prefers crits and therefore dps while they get free elemental statuses.

Also crit itself automatically apply all statuses from all elemental sources you do with single hit, pathetic passives with +5% chance to shock wont do that for you if you are doing both cold and lightning damage with your hits.

And surgeons... well it wouldn't be problem without coc/mjollner builds but hey, these builds exist and their abuse of surgeons is just pathetic. It was same back in the days when banana throwers were popular. Anyone who can deal tons of hits/crits will easily abuse this mechanic. I wouldn't mind it they would lose something in return when they choose to do trillion of mini hits (something like lower dps, survivability or something) but it is just pure profit at these days. Which is wrong.

You 100% right, but the problem is you talking with troll, he know everything you typed and agree with you, but he having fan with posting otherwise.
He wants to prove to you and to other people, and even ggg that he is right and thereby increase his ego or just for fan.

Real problem that ggg listen him, not you or me or anyone who not trolling.