evasion v armor
" What other damage reduction sources did you use? evasion isn't enough, just like with armor users. Armor isn't enough, you'll probably need endurance charges, enfeeble, or other reductions. Also, evasion isn't random. You are speaking like you had a chance to get hit by 5 goatmen at once. Even with 20% chance to evade, it's not going to happen. Last edited by IriZe on Jan 2, 2014, 4:21:59 AM
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" I simply refer to the following observation: suppose I have a character that's pure armor-based, reducing an incoming hit of 100 dmg by 50%. He has 1000 hp. Then he can take 20 hits, with each hit doing 50 dmg. (He will die on the 20th hit) If I have a 1000-hp evasion-based character with a 50% chance to evade the same hit of 100 dmg, he will also die on the 20th hit. Now give both characters 25% flat reduction from endurance charges (yeah, you'd need like 6 and change endurance charges to do this, but it's to illustrate my point). The armor based character now has 75% reduction, so takes 25 dmg per hit and will die on the 40th hit. That's a two-fold gain in survivablity. The evasion based character will now have 25% reduction with 50% chance to evade. So, he takes 75 damage per hit and gets hit every other time. He dies in 27 or 28 hits, up from 20 -- a meager gain compared to his armored counterpart. Yes, there are other things at play, but it remains true that endurance charges impart a higher gain to survivability (in the form of EHP or, equivalently, number of hits the player can receive before death) to armor-based characters than evasion-based characters. Furthermore, the other effects you could throw down (like blind, for instance), often act as multipliers to EHP and treat the above two cases equally; those effects can therefore be set aside. (Blind will always quadruple your EHP [disregarding incoming crits] unless you have unwavering stance.) Endurance charges do, of course, reduce incoming damage by the same flat amount (or, equivalently, % of incoming dmg) for both characters. It's just that this is more meaningful if you've already reduced the incoming damage somewhat. (Yeah, there are edge cases where an evade character is just barely saved from being one-shot due to his endurance charges. But the above was the thrust of the claim I was making) This is the same concept as for elemental resistances: that passive node that gives 2% max resistance makes a huge difference, as the gain in survivability from 75% to 77% ele resist is huge. In contrast, the gain from 0% ele resist to 2% ele resist is trivial. " You could, and you'd be correct. I think I mentioned that earlier. " I agree. " I didn't mean to imply you did! I prefer evasion based chars, for the reasons you just listed here (among others) ;). Hell, the reason that I gave above for why endurance charges work better for armor builds is similar to (though not quite the same as) the reason that Ondar's guile works better on pure ev builds than hybrid armor+evade builds. IGN: SplitEpimorphism Last edited by syrioforel on Jan 2, 2014, 4:34:10 AM
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" Hmm, i see your point now, somehow i missed that. | |
These calculations are irrelevant, as tooltip damage reduction is irrelevant (same for chance to evade). It's average. This, combined with how armor formula works, will lead to quite different results.
But it doesn't matter much, armor is still safer than evasion. Armor combined with other sources of defence is incomparably better, compared to evasion + equal defence sources. This is a buff © 2016
The Experts ™ 2017 | |
" Are you making general statements now or only talking about evasion vs armor without Ondar's Guille involved? This message was delivered by GGG defence force.
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" We actually made sense, and used calculations to prove something, you just spit out a nonsense. You just completely missed the usage of evasion and armor. With armor you are probably going to be able to take more tiny hits. That's what armor is used for, and it's perfect for melee characters. But, if you aren't melee, evasion is better. Last edited by IriZe on Jan 2, 2014, 6:09:34 AM
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" You might get around that if you stack up with block/spell block, and/or go Vaal Pact route on top of what you get from ondar's guile and the other dodge keystones. I seen a couple of successful melee evasion builds that have done very well in maps. I have a melee evasion character, and he is doing very well in maps as well. He is not invincible, but he is very durable thanks to bloodseeker. I am already planning to make a melee DW block evasion build that revolves around using Ungil's Gauche, Darkray Vectors, Stone of Lazhwar, Daresso's Defiance, and Bino's Kitchen Knife. Edit: To be honest, even armor range can be just as good, or even better than armor melee chars. Ranged chars have mostly been superior due to being able to attack farther away (even off-screen), and kiting successfully. Sometimes you can take the game out of the garage but you can't take the garage out of the game. - raics, 06.08.2016 Last edited by JohnNamikaze on Jan 2, 2014, 6:16:28 AM
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Evasion is definitely very good option:
Take all Ondar's guile, acrobatics, phase acrobatics. With such a setup + shield, you are hardly ever hit. Combined with enough HP buffer it's very good thing! And lastly: Those who have a skill play evasion build, because of skill! And in heretical way: You can play meta-evasion IR build - just go grace and stack exceptional HP (6K+), forget armour on gear, forget evasion on gear, forget energy shield on gear! MY CHALLENGES ARE DONE ON HC, IT'S NOT SC GUYS!
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" Statements are general, such as the whole thread. It's pointless to discuss about pure eva vs pure armor, as they both suck, taken separately, but even then armor is better. I described combined defences, where armor shines much more. For ex. block/armor works better than block/eva. Block/high armor/high HP is also better than block/eva/dodge/ondars/mediocre HP(because when you spend nodes on these defences and still want to do dmg you will inevitably lack HP, combined with lack of str nodes in the right side of the tree). How armor works better could be easily seen in higher difficulty, where mobs got high accuracy and hit damn hard. Btw there are tonnes of "ar vs eva" threads, where all of this was stretched to infinity. I can find them if needed. " Sorry, your calculations are completely wrong so you make no sense. It's you that think you make sense. "Nope, people that want to have fun play eva builds. Those that want to last long pick armor. This is a buff © 2016
The Experts ™ 2017 | |
" And getting one-shotted with high evasion is better why? You can dump everything into evasion, but you're still gonna get hit sometimes. |
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