evasion v armor

Melee Life leech character -> armor with IR-US keystones

with grace running i use 2 flask for armor which makes my damage reduction %90 at lvl 80+ with 5 endurance charge. Got 30k ish armor with that flasks buff.

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Sheriff_K wrote:

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ozzy9832001 wrote:

That was one of the reasons I didn't go acro, I wanted to get hit so it would trigger enduring cry + molten shell. Most people don't realize that small amounts of armor can actually make a huge difference. With 3 charges + Molten shell (only level 41), and the 500 armor from shield and a bit from belt, I have 30% dr.

You'll never prevent the 1 shot unless you have the life to do it. That's what most don't realize. Sure, armor does offer some reduction against Kole or the likes, but it's nowhere near what people seem to think it is.

I'm using Daresso's Defiance, so I almost always have 4 Endurance Charges, which gives me 16% DR on top of the Armor I get from my Hybrid pieces. So even though I have 54% Eva, 62% Dodge, and 50% DW Block, I still have 20% DR from Armor/Charges. I also run Enfeeble, and have high Life.

It's worked out really well so far, my only problem so far was Evangelists on high Maps with crazy mods, but that was fixed once I started using CwDT+Immortal (and Party Members with Armor builds were having trouble with them as well.)


Also to clarify for some people:
20k Armor will only prevent ~500 Damage from an attack that'd do 6,000 Damage to you. Less Armor, will prevent nearly nothing. I've heard of people being oneshot at 6.4k+ HP on some Maps. So take that how you will. :P

I've been wishing Hyrii's ire would drop for me, because I'd love to test it out. My main issue with acro, and the cluster, is that it's so far away from my build, since I get no other benefits from heading down the back end of the tree. O.Guile, is like 5 points from there, and once again, nothing there but wasted points to me.

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torturo wrote:

Sorry, your calculations are completely wrong so you make no sense. It's you that think you make sense.
armor.

Okay, so do it again.

You get 100 physical damage.

Enfeeble, 34% less damage taken. Less is a keyword here. It's not reduction, it's less damage taken.

100*(1-0,34)=100*0,66=66

Using Lightning Coil, 40% of physical damage taken is converted to lightning damage, that means

66*0,4=26,4 damage taken as lightning damage, and 39,6 damage taken as physical damage.

You have 79% lightning resistance with Purity of Lightning.

26,4*0,21=5,544

The damage you get now is 39,6 physical damage, and 5.544 lightning damage.

Now you have 3 endurance charges, it means 12% physical damage reduction.

39,6*0,88=34,848 physical damage taken.

so in total, you get 34,848+5,544 mixed damage = 40,392 damage taken.

100-40,392=59,608 ~ 60% reduction.

My first calculations were false, as i said (read my posts again!), because i misunderstood enfeeble at the first read.

Then i said, it's approximately 63% damage reduction, and i approximately calculated it in my head while walking on the street. I wasn't that wrong.

So speaking about you, any other words besides your nonsense shittalk?

About the 1 shot scenario everybody is mentionning.
It won't be a 100% physical hit.
It will always come through combination of '80+% of Physical damage added as X' and -Max Res/Vulnerability or something.

The physical part will never be enough by its own unless you're facing a stupid combination of mods + mobs (Rare Bear with Extra Damage Aura + Vulnerability + Deadly + Crit + whatever you want for example)

What i like about Evasion is the ability to basically trivialize 1v1 fights.
What i like about Armor is the ability to ignore Swarms of monsters (more or less), but they are usually no threat.

I'd rather aim for a decent amount of BOTH Armor and Evasion along with Ondar's Guile (still helps) than having no Evasion at all or no Armor at all.

Going IR means Elemental mods are scary as hell unless you can reliably blind/enfeeble them before they have a chance to reach you.
Going Acrobatics means Evangelists/Devoureurs are a real pain to deal with and you can't foresee WHICH hit will effectively hit you. Since you're not hit often at all by attacks, as long as you're not getting one shot, it should be fine, unless you're swarmed.

Going none means you saved some precious points and you'll have some reliable mitigation against everything.
If you need any more mitigation, Immortal Call + Granite are your friends. Or Jade Flask if you're fighting a single strong opponent.

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IriZe wrote:

I didn't mean these calculations, I had in mind another post. Now chill, it's some kind of misunderstanding.

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pajomk wrote:

Can somebody explain me, why and when should I take Iron Reflexes node i passive tree?
I dont get idea when better is evasion and when better is armor....

it usually starts to hurt in Barracks in Act 3
if it does, you probably need moar armour

granite will carry you through normal, but then you need to think about it

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Iyacthu wrote:

About the 1 shot scenario everybody is mentionning.
It won't be a 100% physical hit.
It will always come through combination of '80+% of Physical damage added as X' and -Max Res/Vulnerability or something.

The physical part will never be enough by its own unless you're facing a stupid combination of mods + mobs (Rare Bear with Extra Damage Aura + Vulnerability + Deadly + Crit + whatever you want for example)

What i like about Evasion is the ability to basically trivialize 1v1 fights.
What i like about Armor is the ability to ignore Swarms of monsters (more or less), but they are usually no threat.

I'd rather aim for a decent amount of BOTH Armor and Evasion along with Ondar's Guile (still helps) than having no Evasion at all or no Armor at all.

Going IR means Elemental mods are scary as hell unless you can reliably blind/enfeeble them before they have a chance to reach you.
Going Acrobatics means Evangelists/Devoureurs are a real pain to deal with and you can't foresee WHICH hit will effectively hit you. Since you're not hit often at all by attacks, as long as you're not getting one shot, it should be fine, unless you're swarmed.

Going none means you saved some precious points and you'll have some reliable mitigation against everything.
If you need any more mitigation, Immortal Call + Granite are your friends. Or Jade Flask if you're fighting a single strong opponent.

Why would you use granite with immortal call which prevents all physical damage you should be going immortal call plus any of the 3 +10max resistance flasks...

Oh and arctic armour + evasion is way better than armor+granites or other similar combo. AA prevents all the mini attacks to be piss water while evasion helps from big hits, meanwhile armor prevents from mini attacks but does piss water against higher hits.

Never said to used both.
Running AA + Evasion is great ... if you can afford the mana cost.

Armor vs. Evasion - the endless debate. You can't just look at the mechanics of armor/evasion to compare saying one is better in certain situations or against certain mobs etc, etc. You need to consider the entire game holistically, to see how armor and evasion compare. The way the metagame is currently shaped - I believe armor is favored to be stronger than evasion.


What evasion really needs is some true end game uniques. A lot of these powerful supporter-created end game uniques are not being made for pure evasion builds - those with evasion mods that we are seeing are being made for Iron Reflexes builds.


I would like to preface this by saying that this is not meant to be rant post or anything, just my observations after having played an evasion-based melee character to level 90, I have also played 2 armor characters but neither past level 70ish.


Based on the mechanics alone - it is extremely hard to say whether armor or evasion is better because: a) they both are very strong in certain situations, b) they both have weaknesses. This is why if we focus just on the mechanics - we will always see threads like this about armor vs. evasion, but a conclusion cannot be reached unless you aggregate the entire game and look at things like gear, passive nodes, gems, etc.


Anyway, here is why I think the meta favors armor over evasion:

Iron Reflexes - converts armor to evasion which is great for armor builds. Evasion builds that have gear with armor that they do NOT need have no passive node to convert armor to evasion - as a result they run around with really low levels of armor that are pretty much useless to them. - Evasion characters are really only worried about large hits that pass their damage avoidance and that low amount of armor they carry around will count for nothing against large physical hits.
- The IR discrepancy also applies to all these nice end game uniques that are being introduced with both armor AND evasion: Bringer of Rain, Daresso's Defiance (this should have been a pure evasion chest as combining dodge and armor makes no sense). They seem to have been made for IR characters, and are more optimal for IR builds. The armor mods they provide are pretty much useless to a pure evasion character, but the IR characters benefit from BOTH the armor and evasion on these items.
- This debate on IR may not seem like a big deal to some, but now look what happens when you consider AURAS and FLASKS as well:
i) Determination + Grace + Iron Reflexes - that's a lot of armor
ii) Granite Flask + Jade Flask + Iron Reflexes - again, that's a lot of armor
There is no way you can do this with evasion, and with evasion you can only use a single aura (Grace) or single flask (Jade) to increase your evasion.
- And regarding the Jade flask - this was only introduced a few months ago (and is only available on the new leagues), yet Granite flasks have been around forever. Also, which I find weird, the Jade flask only gives enough to be used ONCE before needing to be refilled, while Granite flasks can be used TWICE. Again - some people may not think this is a big deal, but it makes the difference between having to carry 2 Jade flasks vs just carrying 1 Granite flask.

This brings me to UNIQUES:
- Aegis Aurora this is an OP shield that is used by every optimal high armor build with block. It grants insane survivability and will only work on high Armor builds. Until there is some sort of shield for evasion/block builds - the vast majority of players that are making block builds - would rather go for a high armor build to take advantage of this nice OP shield
- Honestly, the strongest pure evasion unique that I can think of is Alpha's Howl - other high level pure evasion uniques like Hyrri's Ire, Bronn's Lithe etc. are nice, but are really not useful for any build looking to do serious end game.
- Special mention goes to Daresso's Defiance - to me it makes no sense that you have Armor + Evasion + 6% Dodge on this item: if you want to take Acrobatics to improve the small 6% Dodge then you will be reducing ALL your armor by half due to the Acrobatics penalty. If you don't take Acrobatics - what is the point then of having "6% Dodge" on this chest? At least if it was Spell Dodge it would be more prefarable - but it is regular Dodge so the mod is really wasted on this item.

GEMS:
- Molten Shell - nice gem giving up to 1,000+ additional armor (which is then scaled by all your passives and Granite flask mod). Awesome for high armor builds. However, no gem yet in game to give some sort of additional buff to evasion. You could argue that evasion builds get more use out of Blind, which is true - however armor builds also benefit from Blind. Additionally, Blind needs to be linked to an attack/support totem/or applied through Smoke Mine which is all inefficient/tedious/tedious compared to casting Molten Shell or having Molten Shell linked to CWDT
- Arctic Armor - armor builds benefit WAY more than evasion with Arctic Armor because the AA reduction is being applied AFTER the damage is reduced by their armor. So the efficiency of your AA reduction is very high. With a low armor build you will be applying the AA reduction to such a large amount of damage (since your low armor = low damage reduction) that using AA really becomes very inefficient.
- Cast When Damage Taken - great gem. Again - armor benefits WAY more from this gem because they are constantly taking some damage. So they can easily proc useful spells like Enduring Cry/Molten Shell/etc. Evasion really does not benefit from CWDT because the point of an evasion build is NOT to take ANY damage. There should be a Cast on Evade gem or something so that we can proc useful spells to help us WHEN our evasion fails. With CWDT - when you combine this with an evasion build focused on damage avoidance - the CWDT supports will only come into effect AFTER you take damage - which is really not helfpul. But I have a feeling that Cast on Evade will never be implemented into the game because there will be no downsides involved with Cast on Evade, unlike CWDT.

MECHANICS:
- This is what most people focus on for the debate in this thread: i.e. armor better against small hits, evasion better 1v1, etc. Again - this can't be decided because armor and evasion both have strengths and weaknesses.
- You need to compare armor vs. evasion, and assume all else is equal (character life etc)
- Against elemental attack damage and against really high attack damage (i.e. Vaal smash, Spinecrack with dangerous mods etc) - evasion is more preferable because armor does not apply to elemental damage, and the damage on some of these bosses can get so high that you are looking at one shot scenarios regardless of armor/evasion.
- Where evasion is weak, armor shines: physical spells, physical degeneration like puncture, fast/many hitting mobs (Cyclone bosses, Jungle Valley boss room) - in fact this is when Aegis Aurora really perform - anything that is fast hitting/procs a lot of blocks = more survivability for them.
You also need to compare other things like:
- Evasion's entropy
- How mob accuracy scales vs. mob damage throughout the game
- Crits
- Curses


Anyway - I can see that GGG has tried to change direction and implement things to help evasion builds with damage reduction like Lightning Coil, Mind Over Matter - but I have yet to see an end game mapping build that uses these.