Remove MF completely from game

"

Hovergame wrote:

I also don't understand the mantality of the players these days. When I started to play online almost 20 years ago, I wasn't giving a rat's ass to what the player next to me could do. I enjoyed the games from the start to the end, and that was all. Then, a well known MMO arrived and destroyed everything, and for many pleyers now, the game really begins at level max, a build 1% inferior isn't worth playing and min/maxing is the new rule, even before enjoying the game. Their new rule, to enjoy a game, is : I need to have the best build, the best killingspeed, the best loots.

And if they don't like a different build, they even spam during countless pages how to nerf them to the ground. And the company who created this well known MMO tried to kill the aRPG's, but the gamers told them to GTFO. But some arer willing to continue in that way : an easy levelling, a stupid end-game and sure loots for killing a "OMG nerfed to the ground boss".

I will say it again, but the new players are now basically jealous of everything. If their build isn't the best, if they cannot handle a stats, or whatever : let's spam to nerf it !

I'm going to do something odd here; I'm going to essentially agree with you. There is a large horde of jealous players out there, and this didn't exist years ago.

However, I'm still against MF. It's not a jealousy thing. Instead, it's the same reason I'm against Labyrinthine on indoor maps and the Wealth mod on monsters. Simply put, IIQ, Labyrinthine and Wealth are in every case the best possible mod. They are totally build-independent best-in-slots.

And I'm against build-independent best-in-slots, because I believe in having every element of the game encourage build diversity. That's why I'm playing PoE and not instant-respec Diablo 3, or some other ARPG.

What IIQ, and to a lesser extent IIR, does is essentially affix limit slots. It's best-in-slot for everyone, so you're down to 5 affixes right away. Toss in IIR, and you're down to 4. Can you still squeeze some build variety out of those remaining 4 slots? Absolutely. But not as much as you could get out of 6. (Same thing with Labyrinthine on maps, you're down to 1 suffix on blues and maybe 5 suffixes on rares, as opposed to 2 and 6 respectively.)

The reason I'm against IIQ is because I want to have two or three very high-level characters with amazing gear, and not see a single rare affix the same among all of their rare gear. I want them to be wearing completely different stuff, while still being optimized for their builds. And as things are right now, that's not what I'd see; instead, I'd see loads of IIQ on all of them.

(Even Life, which is an absurdly powerful affix, is worthless to dedicated ES builds, and ES is also very powerful, but not worth as much to life builds; although there are pretty much only two choices there, so pulling a third character with repetition is very difficult, but it's still a better situation than the IIQ monopoly.)

So it's not all hate, Hovergame. It's not that I'm jealous of the Sporkers, in fact that could be one of the 2-or-3 builds of mine. Instead, I am against IIQ affixes because nothing should ever be the best for everyone.

@ScrotieMcB

I usualy don't quote you because you're making sense. I don't like MF, but I never considere MF as "best in slot". Resistances are far above MF.

But I'm just tired of some answers. I don't get the logic behind "I don't have enough currencies to sustain my 72+ maps, remove MF". How will it help him to sustain his maps ? Unless he wants more currencies, then he should directly ask for more currencies, no ? I imagine a river and a bridge, someone is saying "I don't like to cross the river with that bridge, destroy that bridge". WTF ?

And my main concernes isn't about MF itserlf, but what will happen next. Keep the low rates ? It doesn't change anything for players wthout MF, if you you feel fucked without Mf, you will still be fucked with Mf removed. Increase the rates ? Why ? The rates are fine, most players just don't know how to play.

PS I should stop using my Galaxy Tab 2 for replies, I have issues with the keyboard :p

"

Hovergame wrote:

@ScrotieMcB

I usualy don't quote you because you're making sense. I don't like MF, but I never considere MF as "best in slot". Resistances are far above MF.

Yes, that's a problem I thought of after my post; like it or not, each and everyone one of those characters I talked about, wanting them to be different, would have gobs of resistance affixes and thus have something in common. Not a big fan of the passive tree nerf to elemental resistances recently; if you ask me, it should be viable to completely ignore it on gear and get it all (or at least most) through the passive tree instead. On the bright side, it's a capped stat, so there's a limit to how much it dominates.

"

Hovergame wrote:

And my main concerns isn't about MF itself, but what will happen next. Keep the low rates ? It doesn't change anything for players without MF, if you you feel fucked without Mf, you will still be fucked with Mf removed. Increase the rates ? Why ? The rates are fine, most players just don't know how to play.

Well, it would require an increase, plain and simple; right now maps really aren't sustainable at no MF at all, even if you're running rare maps. But I personally balk every time I see someone say we need 10x the currency drop rates; that's insane. You probably don't need even 100% IIQ to sustain map currency, so doubling the droprates would probably be too much. 50% more would probably be reasonable. I'm not sure though; it would require testing.

I'm not sure about the numbers, but... you ever play in those Descent races? There's some kind of increased droprate going on there, and it actually feels just about right.

Magic Find mechanic overall may feel great for softcore players, as you seem to have no hard tasks of first degree when dieing is almost a non-issue, and without it the game may become to feel a bit incomplete.

I would like to also recall back to the post of ckay27, who ran possibly even more overall hardcore maps than I did, while investing rather heavily into MF playing in a party.

"

ckay27 wrote:

You only need one Mf'er in a group. I can run decent MF legitimately on maps and in the month race I did so to great success. Its a balance of xp speed against loot gain, which is most beneficial. Not having loot is not an option in my opinion, everyone should have magic find; it is one of the most fun aspects of the game. Remove MF and make this like any other rpg. All I see is people trying to reduce the depth; there are already so many shallow games like Skyrim already! I will quit if they make it easier for casual players as I've been waiitng foreevr for a game that isn't cookie cutter crap with no depth (diablo3!!!!!!!!)

Edit: THERE IS DEFINITELY A NEED FOR A QUANTITY BOOST FOR 1-2 PLAYER PARTIES. It is unfair that someone who would CHOOSE to play solo or with just there real life friend is severely impeded by not having the xp and loot gain. Especially in a race. Maybe there could be a SOLO-ONLY MF UNIQUE (high level req, to stop irl traders) to counter this at least for solo.

Unfortunately, currently MF severely limits the number of available builds for solo play. Partly it may be because melee suck. I think map sustainability and solo play could be fixed without eliminating Magic Find, but overall I feel the game would be much better without MF. So vast passive skill tree to waste when MF meta-game kicks in seems too lame to me. It's exactly what makes the game more shallow, not the other way around.

I feel this very controversy after having read so many awesome (and not so awesome) feedback on the topic. Magic Find is just too sweet a stat for everyone, that the game could potentially feel somewhat empty without it. Fix it and make this like any other rpgs, you say? But desync mechanics fix (if we ever see it) would lead to the exact same result. Does this mean developers shouldn't ever fix broken mechanics at all? I personally hope not.

Removing MF will never happen. But I think without a doubt the current polarization of builds and massive barrier to entry itno end game farming demonstrates MF is currently too powerful.


People are too apt to go off the handle and demand something that's causing problems be removed entirely- It's very easy to believe something is fundamentally broken by it's very nature when it's currently OP- this is usually not the case. Nerf MF(and conversely how much of it is needed to function)- but don't remove it entirely.

I'd say just give all players a passive hidden 15-20% iiq and 30-40% iir and reduce all occurrences of itemfind on gear by maybe 10-15%.


That way the relative difference between a build with barely any MF and one stacking MF is significantly smaller, but at the same time a significant quantifiable advantage does lie in stacking more MF.

@bilun: Will you agree if MF will not be removed, but MF affixes would appear only on unique items?

Why do you have to overcomplicate everything with strange reasoning and inverted hipster logic? It's simple - playing without MF is not productive, even if it's fun killing and in this game being both productive with finds and killing stuff are the core of fun. Having one without the other is flawed, that's why people stick to MF builds to farm their gear. I don't like to be forced to make a character that can run MF just to gear my non-MF char. I did exactly that and I dropped my non-MF char because it was not productive and not fun to play it, since I was getting almost nothing from loots. This is a problem and it's crystal clear that it exists.

What we need is a solution. Nerfing MF by hardcaping it and rising it effectiveness would be a good solution. It should be balanced around that every char should be able to stack some of it without being a gimp. You can get 100 irr as melee and only gimp yourself a little - on normal rare gear with good rolls. You cant get to 300 irr with melee without wearing gear that gimps your resists and armor/life to oblivion. I would vouch for buffing the 100 irr to have similar results to current 200 irr and after that, giving irr diminishing returns. It would be still a good idea to run a full MF char, you would get better loots but the gap would not be huge.

"

bilun wrote:

Removing MF will never happen. But I think without a doubt the current polarization of builds and massive barrier to entry itno end game farming demonstrates MF is currently too powerful.

People are too apt to go off the handle and demand something that's causing problems be removed entirely- It's very easy to believe something is fundamentally broken by it's very nature when it's currently OP- this is usually not the case. Nerf MF(and conversely how much of it is needed to function)- but don't remove it entirely.

I would settle for this and feel perfectly happy about it:

• All IIQ and IIR rare affixes halved (rounded up). This would include a retroactive rollback on all items currently in existence. The top IIQ suffix, "of Amassment," would become 9-10% IIQ; the top IIR affix, "of Excavation," would become 11-13% IIR.
• Gold Rings changed to provide 6-10% IIR. Gold Amulets changed to provide 11-15% IIR.
• Item Quantity support gem changed to start at 15% IIQ and gain 1% every even level, maxing at 25%. Quality bonus nerfed to 0.2% per point (max +4%).
• Item Rarity support gem changed to start at 20% IIR and gain 1% per level, maxing at 39%. Quality bonus nerfed to 0.25% per point (max +5%).
• Unique item IIQ and IIR handled on a case-by-case basis, but generally cut by 20-50% current values.
• 25% more item quantity for everyone. Note that the drop from 164% IIQ to 89% IIQ (for players who had previously maxed IIQ with rare affixes and support gems, but no uniques) is a 40% reduction.
• 32% more item rarity for everyone. Note that the drop from 273% IIR to 157% IIR (for players who had previously maxed IIR with rare affixes and support gems, but no uniques) is a 45% reduction. 25% more quantity and 32% more rarity combine for 65% more rare/unique drops overall.

However, I still think IIQ/IIR would be exceptionally strong mods for solo map runners, as well as dedicated Culling Strike MF-assist builds in map groups... I'm not sure that this would solve the problem at all, since no other affixes increase loot per map. However, hopefully this would hurt IIQ/IIR enough from a loot-per-unit-time perspective that things would be a little more balanced. The problem is that we're actually comparing intangibles here; "loot" may be in both terms, but if loot-per-map is all that matters and loot-per-unit-time is irrelevant, nothing we do could ever fix MF affixes...

Even a halving nerf like this wouldn't be nearly enough to prevent IIQ/IIR builds from being viable, and perhaps still overpowered. But the more I think about it, perhaps the dedicated Culling Strike MF-assist build isn't necessarily a bad thing; it is, after all, a unique build designed for team play with a dedicated niche. Perhaps the ideal balance is to keep that build viable for group play, while minimizing the IIQ/IIR requirements for solo players.

Do not remove MF, because its a nice aspect to gameplay (do I risk defense/offense for MF, etc.)

But something about solo play and reward must be corrected.

Solo play is more difficult than gruping and at the same time less rewarding. More difficult mode should be more rewarding, not viceversa. A lot of players do not party because of various reasons: lack of IRL friends who play this game (or any game), FPS drops, annoying public groups... and other reasons which are not really important.

The important thing is to not balance the game around organized group play and streamers, who play easy mode and are able to run extreme high MF, while solo suckers will not see a good drop in hundreds of hours of gameplay.

(else call this game a competitive E-sport MMO, or something, not an ARPG)

Been playing in Onslaught now for 250 hours at least, and running around 30/100 (cant sacrifice more defense for MF), and this is the best / most valuable drop I can show, lol:




(Also, HC leagues should have a default +MF stat, because you cant bruteforce the game and die all the time with only MF gear on you and no defense, like you can do it in SC. Harder mode -> more reward)

You know, most MFers, just run uniques? I have caped resists with that(80), 5k es and kill merci piety under 1 minute in lunaris solo. I also run a ton of rarity of rarity and quantity on other shit like How is that fair compared to any melee? I could run a second andv and still have caped resists.