Remove MF completely from game

"

lososthefish wrote:

You know, most MFers, just run uniques?

All of those uniques are trading quantity for rarity. Aurseize? Giving up 20 quantity for 25 rarity, absolutely not, suboptimal. Andvarius? Giving up 20 quantity for 35-45 rarity, about even. Wondertrap? Giving up 20 quantity for 75 rarity, obviously a good thing.

Well, these your comparations are actually correct but also way off at the same time.

Looks like you consider level 77 suffix (of Amassment) maxed out - something that is not actually very easy to get. While at the same time uniques like Andvarius could be found as low as Cruel Ledge.

The items you compare those uniques to are actually several times more expensive. Let's say Andvarius is at about 2.5-3 exalteds worth, the of Amassment ring would easily cost at about 8-10 exalteds.

I don't want to somehow dismiss your point, this is actually great - it is the possibility to upgrade your magic find gear at higher levels. But this path looks like the only way to play.

I guess, welcome to Path of Ranged Only Full Party Farming With Exactly One MF-stacked Culling Striker.

MF looks like a cool mechanic that people would like to have on Softcore. Without MF, they could focus on actually interesting and important decisions on kill speed, survivability, movement speed etc, achieving the same result as with magic find, but more organically. Removing MF could help balance the game and open new build opportunities on a passive skill tree. This is my opinion.


It turns out, Kripparrian made a video on 30th July about Magic Find, and he seems to be fine with the mechanic in general. Interesting, but almost everything he said I already read from different people posting in this topic. Considering his opinion, and basing on latest game changes like Kole/Brutus nerf were made after he got problems with them, Magic Find will hardly ever be touched in the game.

Having said that, I personally see no point to further explore the topic.

"

Daefecator wrote:

The items you compare those uniques to are actually several times more expensive. Let's say Andvarius is at about 2.5-3 exalteds worth, the of Amassment ring would easily cost at about 8-10 exalteds.

Was going to say "no way it's worth that much"... but it's actually close. Makes me one of the luckiest players on earth yesterday... had an Exalted Orb drop for me in Act 2 Normal (Old Fields), then about 10 minutes later had this drop from me in Chamber of Sins 1 or 2 (I haven't use a single orb on it)...

:D

In any case, those rare values were just used as a basic guidepost to keeping the game roughly the same for MF characters afterward; In that post, I'm not trying to directly nerf their drops, I'm trying to keep their drops the same while buffing non-MF drops, weakening MF's relative advantage and thus weakening it purely in a relative sense. Notice that I deliberately chose values less than the expected drop for a MF-maxed character; that's because I believe that the majority of MF characters aren't as well-geared as that.

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

had an Exalted Orb drop for me in Act 2 Normal (Old Fields), then about 10 minutes later had this drop from me in Chamber of Sins 1 or 2 (I haven't use a single orb on it)...

:D

Yeah, you had great luck with those items! :)

On a totally unrelated note. I recently decided to play Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning. I played it last year, but haven't finished. So after all these talks about MF here in PoE, I decided to maximize Magic Find in my Reckoning game (it's called Detect Hidden there). Man, I am having so-o much fun right now. I have totally cool epic item drops, constantly see set items on top of having all secrets in the game highlighted for me - it's so amazing! Last time I played, I played without this Magic Find, and I was barely ever seeing an upgrade.

Turns out I played totally wrong! I think that Hovergame guy delivered his message to me well - I fucking want more fucking loot! Magic Find mechanics is not only mandatory - it's the only thing that is fun on top of crappy things like resistances, evasion, health and stuff, lol.

So does it mean the only fun option for me would be playing a sporker or a summoner in the case the sporker is nerfed as a side effect of this topic? That's meh, as Kigdoms of Amalur provide much more viable builds diversity (while having capped Magic Find!) having only like 75 talent choices as opposed to close to 1.5k nodes of passive skillbalalaika tree.

@up that's exactly what I'm talking about. I agree I can have rares that are better than any of those uniques, but to get those rares, that cost 20 times than those uniques, you need a mf char that runs those uniques. I did a lot of builds, melee, some performed amazingly, some did not. You need mf gear to find mf gear thats better, and for that you need a char that can wear sub par mf gear without problems. And even after you do, mf on melee and physical in general is suboptimal. You can run magic users in sub par gear with mf and still have great damage. Things like ek, discharge, fp, etc. don't need much to kill stuff compared to all those physical wanders, cycloners, cleavers, ground slamers.

All I know is that the game feels odd when my non MF characters kill a boss and receive 1 rare item (maybe none) for their efforts. Then my MF characters kills a boss at a comparable speed and receives 10-15 rares and maybe a unique.

I don't dislike magic find I just wish it was implemented in a different way.

Another post from me!!

REMOVE IT FROM THE GAME !

better economy in the long term!

better build diversity !

better overall !

thx ! :)

"

Daefecator wrote:

Spoiler

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

had an Exalted Orb drop for me in Act 2 Normal (Old Fields), then about 10 minutes later had this drop from me in Chamber of Sins 1 or 2 (I haven't use a single orb on it)...

:D

Yeah, you had great luck with those items! :)

On a totally unrelated note. I recently decided to play Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning. I played it last year, but haven't finished. So after all these talks about MF here in PoE, I decided to maximize Magic Find in my Reckoning game (it's called Detect Hidden there). Man, I am having so-o much fun right now. I have totally cool epic item drops, constantly see set items on top of having all secrets in the game highlighted for me - it's so amazing! Last time I played, I played without this Magic Find, and I was barely ever seeing an upgrade.

Turns out I played totally wrong! I think that Hovergame guy delivered his message to me well - I fucking want more fucking loot! Magic Find mechanics is not only mandatory - it's the only thing that is fun on top of crappy things like resistances, evasion, health and stuff, lol.

So does it mean the only fun option for me would be playing a sporker or a summoner in the case the sporker is nerfed as a side effect of this topic? That's meh, as Kigdoms of Amalur provide much more viable builds diversity (while having capped Magic Find!) having only like 75 talent choices as opposed to close to 1.5k nodes of passive skillbalalaika tree.

I don't know how you could look at that experience as a good thing from a development perspective. Clearly the huge difference between your first time playing Reckoning and your more recent play isn't so much a sign that things are good, but that things were horribly wrong the first time.

One core problem with ARPGs is the following tradition, present in PoE and that Reckoning game as well as Diablo 2.

• The best gear affixes are the MF affixes, everything else comes second. This applies to all aspects of the game at all times.
• Getting these to roll on good rares is difficult, so to compensate there's always a set of cheap MF uniques to choose from.
• The MF mods on even the rares, and especially the uniques, is normally flat-out absurd; increases routinely exceed 25% from a single item, and a full set generally means triple or quadruple efficiency.
• The best starting builds are always the ones to best make use of these cheap uniques; this is almost always a spellcaster build, since the best MF weapons hit like a wet noodle and weapon damage and spell damage are usually divorced concepts, and the best MF gear normally has subpar defense and thus some form of ranged attack is your best option.

It's a dumb system, and trying it out for oneself and saying "Wow, this sure is OP!" isn't a solution of any kind. What it really is: a tradition that needs to die.

What if, at the dawn of ARPGs, someone had gotten the idea to include "% increased damage" as a rare affix. Not fire damage, not spell damage... all damage. Naturally there wouldn't be a single build that would mind seeing the affix pop up. Now imagine if, since the very beginning, it had been customary to put values of 25% or more on your helmet, on your gloves, on your belt, and so on. Well, that's pretty much what we have here. How it's continued this long defies all reason.

Due to the extreme build independence of IIQ and IIR, the only proper solution is to either remove them entirely, or nerf them to near-obscurity. It's the only way to make build-dependent choices matter.

^ you should never nerf them into "near obscurity". If they are worthless then whats the point in them? Just clogging the affix pool and making crafting even harder. You either completely eradicate it, or make so its worthwhile to stack it as much as possible. Moderation in this case is worse then the extremes.

@andkamen: There is an important difference between obscurity and "near obscurity," hence my use of that specific term. I'm aware of the problems in overnerfing something, but I think IIR could be cut in half and IIQ cut to a third of present values and it still wouldn't be nerfed hard enough to not be stackable by specialized Culling Strike map group builds.