Remove MF completely from game

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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Daefecator wrote:

Spoiler

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

had an Exalted Orb drop for me in Act 2 Normal (Old Fields), then about 10 minutes later had this drop from me in Chamber of Sins 1 or 2 (I haven't use a single orb on it)...

:D

Yeah, you had great luck with those items! :)

On a totally unrelated note. I recently decided to play Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning. I played it last year, but haven't finished. So after all these talks about MF here in PoE, I decided to maximize Magic Find in my Reckoning game (it's called Detect Hidden there). Man, I am having so-o much fun right now. I have totally cool epic item drops, constantly see set items on top of having all secrets in the game highlighted for me - it's so amazing! Last time I played, I played without this Magic Find, and I was barely ever seeing an upgrade.

Turns out I played totally wrong! I think that Hovergame guy delivered his message to me well - I fucking want more fucking loot! Magic Find mechanics is not only mandatory - it's the only thing that is fun on top of crappy things like resistances, evasion, health and stuff, lol.

So does it mean the only fun option for me would be playing a sporker or a summoner in the case the sporker is nerfed as a side effect of this topic? That's meh, as Kigdoms of Amalur provide much more viable builds diversity (while having capped Magic Find!) having only like 75 talent choices as opposed to close to 1.5k nodes of passive skillbalalaika tree.

I don't know how you could look at that experience as a good thing from a development perspective. Clearly the huge difference between your first time playing Reckoning and your more recent play isn't so much a sign that things are good, but that things were horribly wrong the first time.

Spoiler

One core problem with ARPGs is the following tradition, present in PoE and that Reckoning game as well as Diablo 2.

• The best gear affixes are the MF affixes, everything else comes second. This applies to all aspects of the game at all times.
• Getting these to roll on good rares is difficult, so to compensate there's always a set of cheap MF uniques to choose from.
• The MF mods on even the rares, and especially the uniques, is normally flat-out absurd; increases routinely exceed 25% from a single item, and a full set generally means triple or quadruple efficiency.
• The best starting builds are always the ones to best make use of these cheap uniques; this is almost always a spellcaster build, since the best MF weapons hit like a wet noodle and weapon damage and spell damage are usually divorced concepts, and the best MF gear normally has subpar defense and thus some form of ranged attack is your best option.

It's a dumb system, and trying it out for oneself and saying "Wow, this sure is OP!" isn't a solution of any kind. What it really is: a tradition that needs to die.

What if, at the dawn of ARPGs, someone had gotten the idea to include "% increased damage" as a rare affix. Not fire damage, not spell damage... all damage. Naturally there wouldn't be a single build that would mind seeing the affix pop up. Now imagine if, since the very beginning, it had been customary to put values of 25% or more on your helmet, on your gloves, on your belt, and so on. Well, that's pretty much what we have here. How it's continued this long defies all reason.

Due to the extreme build independence of IIQ and IIR, the only proper solution is to either remove them entirely, or nerf them to near-obscurity. It's the only way to make build-dependent choices matter.

My personal point of view is exactly the same with what you responded that I left unspoilered. I also completely agree with your next part on this topic that I spoilered.

Playing without MF is a really horrible experience. While it is intended to be a bonus in the first place, it actually acts as a penalty for not having it stacked to the absolute maximum.

The only thing that I realized, that any game that allows any form of magic find is actively blocking you from a portion of game enjoyment if you choose to opt out of it. Nerfing or buffing Magic Find affects the size of this portion that you are blocked from, but the problem stays unless you eliminate it from the game entirely.

I find your comparation of MF to an abstract "+% increased all damage dealt" to be brilliant.

I really haven't personally experienced much of MF runs in this game yet. However, the rarity of rares is a bit...rough. Going 30 levels without upgrading an item not because its good, but because nothing else drops is not a good design. If I have to rely on MF, then make it more common, or make it come with some sort of damage or defense mod. I have no desire to play a summoner or dual spork witch to faceroll MF myself to victory. I'd like to play the game how I want and not be punished for it, especially as a melee character.

Is there a possibility of moving MF to another system? Maybe tie it into challenges or another set of accomplishments(some not as time consuming) or level or something?

Edit: I should add that I understand RNG and grinding in a game, and Im not against that. But when there is a similar experience of disparity across not only all of my characters, but the characters of other players, there comes a point where one should ask themselves if the design is really working. There needs to be a better reward system for those without MF. The rogue exiles in Anarchy are one such example, and I love finding them as they typically drop 2 to 4 rares for me with no MF.

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Daefecator wrote:

I find your comparation of MF to an abstract "+% increased all damage dealt" to be brilliant.

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zinki wrote:

Is there a possibility of moving MF to another system? Maybe tie it into challenges or another set of accomplishments(some not as time consuming) or level or something?

Was just having a cigarette when this idea came to me: If MF affixes feel so much like "+% increased all damage dealt"... wouldn't the solution be to keep MF affixes, but make them more build-dependent?

A great example of a Magic Find unique that, now that I think about it, is actually very well-designed, is this:

Imagine for a moment that this was the only type of MF in the game. Clever build strategists would realize that the lower your non-critical damage is relative to your critical damage, the more likely the MF would trigger... so they'd be stacking crit multiplier. They'd be building around a Magic Find affix instead of simply benefiting from it.

Gifts from Above is an example of what MF should actually look like... but naturally it shouldn't be limited to critical hits only. For example, imagine combining a quiver with "increased rarity of items dropped by enemies killed at close range" with the Chin Sol bow, trying to come up with a min/max scheme for "increased quantity of items dropped by enemies killed by this weapon while dual-wielding," or adding in Chance to Ignite so you can benefit from "increased rarity of items dropped by enemies killed by burning damage."

That is build specificity.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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Daefecator wrote:

I find your comparation of MF to an abstract "+% increased all damage dealt" to be brilliant.

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zinki wrote:

Is there a possibility of moving MF to another system? Maybe tie it into challenges or another set of accomplishments(some not as time consuming) or level or something?

Was just having a cigarette when this idea came to me: If MF affixes feel so much like "+% increased all damage dealt"... wouldn't the solution be to keep MF affixes, but make them more build-dependent?

A great example of a Magic Find unique that, now that I think about it, is actually very well-designed, is this:

Imagine for a moment that this was the only type of MF in the game. Clever build strategists would realize that the lower your non-critical damage is relative to your critical damage, the more likely the MF would trigger... so they'd be stacking crit multiplier. They'd be building around a Magic Find affix instead of simply benefiting from it.

Gifts from Above is an example of what MF should actually look like... but naturally it shouldn't be limited to critical hits only. For example, imagine combining a quiver with "increased rarity of items dropped by enemies killed at close range" with the Chin Sol bow, trying to come up with a min/max scheme for "increased quantity of items dropped by enemies killed by this weapon while dual-wielding," or adding in Chance to Ignite so you can benefit from "increased rarity of items dropped by enemies killed by burning damage."

That is build specificity.

I'm just going to wing-it and say that if someone from GGG reads this post, and they likely will, this will start appearing more and more as uniques are made and patches drop. Loving it.

Very seriously considering buying the "make your own unique" thing in the shop and going at it with this in mind.

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Daefecator wrote:

Playing without MF is a really horrible experience. .... The only thing that I realized, that any game that allows any form of magic find is actively blocking you from a portion of game enjoyment if you choose to opt out of it.

MF isn't the problem.

Your false expectations are.

As in, The secret to Happiness is to remove false expectations.

You are letting your greed dictate how you play the game instead of the other way around.

IF you are playing to min-max the time/reward ROI then yes MF is (obviously) the optimal solution.

However you are making a BIG assumption, as in: Not everyone plays games to min-max them. *shocked What!?* :-)

A few of us just want to relax with our (virtual) friends. MF is just a bonus.

Is it nice? Hell yeah. Is it necessary? No.

Some of us just play to have fun. You should try it sometime. Less stress. :-)

While I agree that majic find is a fucked up game method and it was fucked up
with Diablo 1 and up and companies mindlessly copy it to this day....

I see no reason to bitch much now as I doubt GG is listening to this at this stage.
They chose this path early on and the chance to get it done right has long gone away (speaking of Majic find yes or no only here not 'generic' criticism).

I'd rather have fun working on other attribs than having to focus as must have MF boosts
to have a decent chance of finding gear I'd might like.

But, as I say, too late, the die is cast long ago they wont' change now. Just move
on to a new game, many have though we do come back to try again....

this is a grind game and that is how it is
that's why there would always be a farm build
Just enjoy the game MF is here to stay

If drop rates are loose everyone will be facetanking everything
and you will do the chicken and egg argument

+1

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Michaelangel007 wrote:

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Daefecator wrote:

Playing without MF is a really horrible experience. .... The only thing that I realized, that any game that allows any form of magic find is actively blocking you from a portion of game enjoyment if you choose to opt out of it.

MF isn't the problem.

Your false expectations are.

As in, The secret to Happiness is to remove false expectations.

You are letting your greed dictate how you play the game instead of the other way around.

IF you are playing to min-max the time/reward ROI then yes MF is (obviously) the optimal solution.

However you are making a BIG assumption, as in: Not everyone plays games to min-max them. *shocked What!?* :-)

A few of us just want to relax with our (virtual) friends. MF is just a bonus.

Is it nice? Hell yeah. Is it necessary? No.

Some of us just play to have fun. You should try it sometime. Less stress. :-)

I was tempted to simply be insulting like a jerk, because you're wrong and explaining why and how is a tremendous amount of work. However, I'm going to do the right thing and generate a wall of text...

From the perspective of a game designer, expectations are what you have, not certainty. You set up the rules a certain way, and you expect particular (hopefully enjoyable) behaviors to result. Even if your next batch of rule changes are based off actual experiments that support your expectations, they are still expectations; there could be a variable you missed. This isn't a movie, this is a game, and as such you expect players to do certain things but they still have free will and could game the system in ways you don't expect. (Yes, there is the concept of emergent gameplay, where you "expect the unexpected" from players by giving them a big toolbox and seeing what happens. However, when games are designed for emergent gameplay, they're considered a failure if everyone just does the same thing as each other; in that case developers are expecting the unexpected and not convergent behaviors.)

Thus, unlike the chicken and the egg, we know which comes first here: expectations. As such, in game design there are no false expectations, only false implementations. First you expect certain player behaviors, then you try to make them happen, and if you fail the expectation (generally) remains while the implementation changes in order to better make the expectation a reality.

The problem is that the creation of the current IIQ and IIR systems, and the numbers associated with them, is an implementation; which begs the question, "what was GGG trying to do here?" That's a tough question, and on this issue there hasn't been much in the way of direct feedback. However, in a more general sence, GGG staff recently posted this: I feel this both explains why IIQ/IIR currently exist, and why it is something that needs to be addressed for its dominance. Choosing to spec into MF might not be much of a decision itself, since the numbers are so large that calculation isn't really necessary, you should be able to tell A>B with a cursory glance... but it nevertheless leads to decisions (plural): you have to decide what to do with your items (based on their affixes) and your currency (based on lack of affixes). Thus, it should matter. This, plus its long-standing tradition in ARPGs such as Diablo 2, led to its inclusion.

However, IIQ/IIR is clearly too dominant to continue existing in its current form, because it hurts build versatility and emergence. IIQ/IIR isn't about combining new things in different ways; it's about combining the same thing (IIQ/IIR) with those new, different things, causing all good farming builds (meaning all good PvE builds) to have the same core itemization in terms of affixes.

And now we come to the core of your argument: that there is a population of people who do not engage in MF, and thus the system doesn't pose a balance problem. The implication running throughout your argument is that IIQ and IIR aren't truly that overpowered, not that dominant, and that the population you represent is proof of that fact.

However, that's not how OP things work. Here's a better picture, based off real numbers: Looking at average experience earned, it's a pretty clear picture: if you want to do well, you pick Duelist or Ranger. Both of these classes are pretty well matched for quality performance; everything else is taking a handicap. Knowledge of Duelist being overpowered for this event has been readily available since early in the season, and a quick perusal of Descent-related topics on these forums would easily give that impression. But despite this, 45% of players chose a class known to suffer a handicap, for a competitive event where results actually have some degree of prize potential.

"Overpowered" isn't "everyone's doing it." There will always be some holdouts clinging to their personal preferences despite game mechanics clearly favoring one decision over another. So yes, I understand that you and your friends are okay doing your own thing, that you don't care about min/maxing. But this is still a huge problem, just like Duelist being OP for Descent races is.

You said "You are letting your greed dictate how you play the game instead of the other way around." But what I'm asking here is: Why must these two desires be in opposition? As a game designer, isn't it one's job to harmonize these two objectives, such that the player isn't torn between the decision to do the fun thing and go unrewarded, or do the rewarding thing and have no fun? If we are to have a game where Qarl is right that "decision matter," it's important to make sure that those actually playing by those rules and making the right decisions are having fun while they're doing it. That's what makes a fun game.

What you and your friends are doing? It's a kind of emergent behavior of its own. To some degree, you've forsaken the "decision matter" ethos that the GGG team intends. What you're playing isn't really PoE; it's some other game of your own design, based on the PoE engine and played on its servers. The standards of success and all forms of objective measurement are replaced by something of your own choosing. And hey, I'm not hating; I hope you enjoy yourselves doing your own thing. Virtually every game has a large population like this, and in some cases they do awesome things (such as making DotA within Warcraft 3). But I ask politely that you not hate back. I'm not trying to stop you from playing your games; please don't try to stop us from properly balancing a game where the decisions actually matter to us.

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Buzi wrote:

While I agree that majic find is a fucked up game method and it was fucked up
with Diablo 1 and up and companies mindlessly copy it to this day....

I do not recall Diablo 1 having any magic find. Its been many years since I played it so I guess its possible I just forgot about it, but I feel somewhat confident saying that Diablo 1 didn't have magic find like this game does.

If it did have some kind of magic find I completely ignored it because it wasn't super important.