Remove MF completely from game

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big_aug wrote:

Spoiler

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Daefecator wrote:

While map drops are actually another topic that won't fix or be fixed via MF, you are absolutely wrong in your opinion about simply being jealous to higher-MF players.

Explanations using Hovergame style

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Hovergame wrote:

And again, please, get a clue about what you're talking about before posting.

It's complete nonsense to post arguments like "incompetence of play without MF" etc. You both seem to imply everyone who chooses anything else instead of MF simply needs to learn to play. This is, in fact, exactly what I was writing about myself. After you get some experience with the game, you realize that MF is pretty much mandatory, finding yourself pretty much obliged to stack Magic Find as high as possible to be even able to continue playing.

I see a trend in this topic of dismissing arguments different people make simply by saying they want more loot and envy those who really knows how to play.

While you will definitely continue using this artificial flawed deduction as a proper dismissal, Magic Find is pretty mandatory and is forced down the throat of everyone. And while we can try to compare it with another statistics like say, Fire/Cold/Lighthing Resist, that are also somehow forced to you, still you are still able to play the game with non-capped resistances. Having main game drive and hook aka loot system to compete with other game stats is really cheap and meaningless. It doesn't give you any options. Selecting between MF and other in-game choices is absolutely like in Tetris choosing between increased chance to spawn line figures and pretty much anything else. It actually limits your choices, as no matter how good (or bad) they are - they do not matter at all, as the winner is predetermined. So it's actually either Hovergame style reflected onto your own loot-envy dismissal posts either this very option as well. How clu... Oh, really?

The issue is maps. If you didn't spend currency on maps, then how much loot/currency you find is optional. You could choose a faster kill speed, safety/defense, stack mass MF, or a balance between them. It is perfectly fine for people to stack MF and get more loot. They are giving up something to do it. The system falls apart because you have to spend currency on maps to level and progress past a certain point.

And yes, it would be a choice. Some people prefer to get less loot and never die (especially HC characters). Some prefer to push the envelope in terms of DPS. Some people would rather farm the easiest content that can drop the items they want with as much MF as possible. All are valid. The only reason MF feels forced now is because we are constantly being drained through maps.

Probably yeah. I think I'd agree with you about options. I'd easily give up all the loot - just to have enough power to cap out my resistances and get some meaningful health and armor - to never ever die and I'd happily be as slow as to never ever think about stopping dps for reflect mobs etc.

If only I could consistently have a map affix like
- At least one map drop of the same level is guaranteed. Mobs drop no equippable loot.

That would be a no-brainer to me and many other players, just like MF is now. I don't think GGG could do something similar, as there would be no proper orb sink in the game.

Considering your logic about options once again - we don't have +experience affix on usual items, so why do we have Magic Find available then? How about having an option to play for maximize experience gains? Yes, you may offer focusing on kill speed and survivability, but that's not actually an answer at all, if you think about it a bit more. So why bother having artificial +Magic Find to maximize loot gains? Shouldn't it be exactly the same, that you should focus on Kill Speed and Movement Speed?

But considering unique (orange) items, they have +experience (and even -experience) affixes. But their usage can heavily affect your overall build choice, and this is actually really interesting speaking purely from gameplay. That's why I strongly think that both IIQ and IIR should be treated just like +experience - they should be totally removed from the game, making an appearance only on unique items.

P.s.: While Hovergame seems to know something about archers, the overall credibility of the post was lowered to totally negative after reading the "GGG created crappy map system". Why do you even care? I want to play a great game, and you just said it's crap :( Well, at least thanks for free thread bump, I suppose.

+ exp gain gear is ridiculously bad design and for the most part forced upon you after a certain level because high Dps being a detriment even with path of life.

What is the most efficient way to play PoE? stack every possible life node, ignore all dps nodes, get + exp gear and possibly + mf gear , get + life on all gear slot and let your weapon and gems take care of damage output.

So your point is Magic Find is a ridiculously bad design as well, as they are both based on "options" of how to play?

XP affixes without MF affixes is just as bad design as MF affixes without XP affixes. Both make it so the ideal way to min/max one thing is to play the game normally, and the way to min/max the other is to farm with specialized gear. The only thing worse would be both MF affixes and XP affixes.

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Daefecator wrote:

So your point is Magic Find is a ridiculously bad design as well, as they are both based on "options" of how to play?

I personally do not find magic find useful and I would be the last person to advocate for a nerf of any kind. In fact it would need to be buffed for me to care about it at this point.


Keep in mind the people posting their ideas here have diverse backgrounds, expectations, and goals.

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Hovergame wrote:

Now, you're spamming during more than 50 pages how MF kills build diversity. what's your build diversity ? the number of different builds you encounter ? Or the number of builds who can effectively level ? Let's take a bow user, they are basically down to 2 skills (LA or ROA) for packs and 2 (Frenzy or EH) for single target, and the trees are usualy very similar. Do you realise how this has nothing to do with MF, but about the gems themselves ? ROA + CE, LA + LMP + Chain ? Every single other bow skill is subpar and/or situationnal. It has nothing to do with MF in general.

I could be wrong but I am getting this feeling that you think any sub-optimal build isn't worth playing. Many people in this game enjoy playing fun and unique builds. My favorite was when I made my own block build that specializes in molten shell and tempest shield. Its not at all a super powerful/fast clearing build, but I still love it. There's no way in hell I'm going to gimp that build with enough magic find to make it at all close to the amount of loot that my magic find build dishes out.

MF (assuming you mean magic-find, from the Diablo days) is just part of the game, part of the genre, and as you've admitted and yielded to: you don't have to use it. I can appreciate that you feel forced into it, but that's tough titties, really... there's a million things out there in the real world and in games that you might not want to do or have to do, but at the end of the day, you do them anwyay.

You contradicted yourself by saying you have a life and all that, because for that very reason you'll want MF bonuses, so that you CAN have better faster more realistic chances. I personally like the dynamic between having farming gear and regular gear; I'm forever baffled as to why people stubbornly stick to just farming gear, then laff when they die repeatedly.

I really, really hope they don't get rid of quantity and rarity variable modifiers, but that said, I suppose it would make things interesting. I don't see it happening, though, for the simple reason that it's far, far too late - the items are already circulating the economy in abundance, and if GGG did make that change, I'd consider it a very, very big mistake.

Honestly, if I want to farm, I stick on my farming gear, and I head on out to Cruel/Merciless Merveil, wreck her a few million times, and reap the currency/unique rewards, or I'll use Ledge Merciless as it has always been good to me (got an Exalted there recently, woo!) or I'll just use docks/Lunaris if I feel like something with more risk, since farming gear ends up sucking, in my experience, unless you're running very, very expensive gear; currently considering Advarius for that reason.

Kinda tired, as it's 3am, so, sorry if I missed something.

KillKillKill, this was already mentioned several times. I was thinking the same. MF is part of the genre, however this game is very different from other games of the genre. To make it short, passive skill tree provides tons of options for various builds, but MF as a mechanic actively limits the amount of builds that feel rewarding to play.


Playing a suboptimal build is very different to playing an unrewarding build. The former can be really enjoying, the latter will definitely never be.

Another problem that is tied to MF, but is actually another topic is Map Sustainability, that is being actively discussed here. When you are level 86+, KillKillKill, you will definitely get everything that is being talked about here. Possibly, like Herpy said, after adding another end-game content like act 4, the map situation could be different, but I highly doubt. We would have the same problems with MF but at later levels, like possibly 95+.

I continue to oppose MF as a play style, and have even gone as far as playing a low life build with a grand total of 0%IIQ and 13%IIR. Wondertraps are shit, and your build sucks if you use them. If you have a farm with them from time to time, okay. If they are your staple boots, you suck.

The thing is, IIQ and IIR do nothing to improve your character in a direct way, only the loot that drops (just more vendor trash and 7th copy of a unique you can't use or sell). As my focus is building strong/fun characters, I would rather have a mod that increases damage or survivability in its place.

I still don't think MF should be removed completely just because I (or any other portion of the community) don't like it.

Wow 76 pages, I had no idea IIQ/IIR was such a hotly debated topic in the community. I have no real issue with IIQ/IIR in general, although I think that it should not work with totems. The fact that so many people can choose the safest build in PoE (dual/tri totems) and get massively rewarded for taking no risk is disheartening. I would think that if totems can get the benefit of a players IIQ/IIR, than so should DoT effects such as burning damage and chaos damage.

I'm sure this has been discussed but thats just my two cents.