Why does Lioneye's Glare have no drawback?

Theorycrafting is one thing, but actual existing items are something completely different...i'm with Mossifer on this one, throw down an ACTUAL bow that is better than a LG and we'll talk,

Secondly, have you seen ANYONE not doing a low-lifebuild using a Shav? A Koams-user without insane gear on all other slots? neither have i..however, almost EVERY single bow-user has a LG..now why is that?

Easy, base attackspeed allows for FASTER life regen with lifesteal/life on hit = stay alive
NEVER miss = stay alive..
As someone mentioned in the thread earlier, don't neglect the 5% in accuracy-difference between having a LG or not...on a lvl77 map, that's the difference between life and death..

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Xendran wrote:

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iao wrote:

You know what would be a cool drawback? An absurdly large Dexterity requirement. I guess that wouldn't matter much for some builds, however.

Wouldn't really matter, and that's just taking advantage of the imbalance in the stats that makes dexterity so bad, which is something that itself needs to be fixed.

I wouldn't say it's about Dexterity being "bad" and taking advantage of that, it's about justifying the "Hits can't be evaded" modifier being coupled with other fantastic modifiers.

Even if Dexterity was more powerful (the low accuracy rating bonus is the only weak part in my opinion), the only way it'd affect the character is with the increased evasion rating. Sure that's a hefty bonus for Iron Reflexes builds, but the keystone might see change soon.

I stand by the idea that having to invest a lot in Dexterity would be an applicable drawback for those that deliberately avoid its section on the tree, which includes most of the builds I've seen based around this bow.

Also, about it competing with other bows: the only one I can think of is Chin Sol paired with Point Blank. However, that's only because it triples your damage at close range, added damage from gear and all.

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Athoy wrote:

Although I would say the comment that you "most likely won't use one, nor will any other top player." is a bit too strong of a statement, I agree with your overall point that if accuracy was improved, a well-rolled rare bow can finally have a much greater chance of outcompeting a Lioneye.

The best part about buffing accuracy is because of Lioneye's current power of granting a large amount of excess mana, a possible total of 7% extra IAS (20% max IAS) above the best rolled rare bow (13% max IAS), and relatively high damage rolls (but still inferior compared to the theoretical rare as you've correctly pointed out), people can see opt to use Lioneye as it will still be remain powerful if for nothing but the extra attack speed and relatively high tier (not highest possible) physical damage mods. It can still be useful and used in end-game for those that couldn't affording a 100 exalt well-rolled rare bow that they must mirror.

Buffing accuracy has the benefits of both nerfing the Lioneye without crippling it by changing the Hits Cannot be Evaded mod into Resolute Technique (which will be a sad day for crit users) and provide us with a better chance of Lioneye not being the sole BIS bow item versus a well-rolled rare. The same effects may be possible to be achieved if we also change the mods on the Lioneye to give a very high amount of accuracy, but not 100%. However that seems to directly contradict what the flavor text suggests.

Strong may perhaps be the right word but I do believe that many top players strive to perfect their characters which does make sense then. People would use Lioneye's Glare as what it is; a cost-effective (well..too cost effective at the moment) stepping stone to that best bow. Bear in mind that a 16% IAS (16% is the cap IIRC for bows IIRC) Thicket is equivalent to a top tier LG.

My beef is not with adjusting it because it certainly does need a drawback, but rather that the problem associated with it should be addressed at the same time so as to not shaft all bow users. In that sense, people would feel less inclined to be unhappy about changes to LG because they can now aim for a better rare. An ideal situation would be just that: making changes to accuracy and rebalancing Lioneye's Glare together in the same patch.


Bow users are in a precarious situation right now. We need an absurd amount of damage affixes on gear to be on par with casters leaving us with no room for accuracy affixes. And as a Ranger with 327 DEX, having a 70% chance to hit against lvl77 mobs is just not right isn't it?

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Lyralei wrote:

Bow users are in a precarious situation right now. We need an absurd amount of damage affixes on gear to be on par with casters leaving us with no room for accuracy affixes. And as a Ranger with 327 DEX, having a 70% chance to hit against lvl77 mobs is just not right isn't it?

The thing is, this is a separate issue, and hence it should be treated separately. This is a thread about Lioneyes, not an issue with Accuracy and perceived issues with it (that and the ranger side of the tree)

In any case, players should not be complaining about hitting 95% accuracy, obviously accuracy is an intended mechanic, and it should have drawbacks if completely bypassed (i.e. RT). LE doesn't have such a drawback, hence why we have this issue.

Its not a separate issue. Its a completely related issue pertaining to the bow itself regardless of drawback or no. If you are to address one thing, you should address things directly related to it. Even if you were to give it a drawback, everyone would still use it because of the underlying issue. And what do we have then? The same BiS scenario, except you made all archers weaker as if they weren't already pressed hard to be competitive to caster options.

Unless you've played a character using accuracy and/or Lioneye's Glare at a high level please don't come and lecture me about them being separate issues.


If you still can't read, let me simplify it for you:
PEOPLE CAN'T USE ALTERNATIVE RARE BOWS BECAUSE OF ACCURACY, HENCE LIONEYE'S GLARE = BIS.

I'm all for giving it a drawback. Solve its associated problem while we're at it. That is all, thank you.

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Athoy wrote:

First
The "two types of uniques" in the game you have suggested is an inaccurate assessment of the uniques in the game. The two categories you've suggested leaves out other categories of uniques while seemingly suggesting that the two categories are mutually exclusive. For instance, GGG has stated that there uniques that are build-enabling, as you have correctly stated, but also uniques that are supposed to be more for pure powerful (e.g. Kaom's heart, Thunderfist, Lioneye's Glare, etc).

However, based on the designs of uniques, it seems that every unique in the game has a downside or drawback. Some drawbacks are more obvious as seen in Kaom's (no sockets--a power unique) and Facebreaker (no weapons, but also the subtle no defensive stats on the gloves--a build enabling unique), while others are more subtle such as the lack of defensive stats seen in Thunderfist and, Lioneye's lack of Crit mods (and possible Chaos resists mods) both of which are power uniques. The other example you've also brought up would be the build-enabling unique quill rain which has it's extremely low damage as the significant downside.

To state that the game simply has 2 types of uniques of "building enabling" and "upside+downside" would be committing a false dichotomy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma. It also happens to show a poor understanding of the uniques in the game.

The categorization of uniques which are either "build-enabling" or "upsides+downsides" is not completely accurate as all uniques were designed to have drawbacks built-in. Some drawbacks are more obvious, while others more subtle, and some are more significant, while others are less so.

Okay, because you seem to disagree (despite this being the way that GGG design their uniques), its not a case of 'everything has a downside', unless your "downsides" are now including "it only has these mods"

I suppose you can also have 'levelling uniques', which are BiS for their level but are outclassed when you get to lategame as another type of item, but these are really just a downside of being 'weak' lategame, they are not meant to be being used lategame either, so they don't factor into this

Araku Tiki - Build enabler (low life regen)
Astramentis - Build enabler/upside+downside/levelling unique
Atziri's Foible - Build enabler
Carnage heart - upside+downside
Daresso's Salute - TBH haven't dealt with this item so don't want to rank it (as with other new uniques)
Sidehebreath - upside+downside (minion damage but terrible stats for player)
The Magnate - upside+downside (better rolls easily for life/es, but flask charges gained and IPD unable to be gotten)
Andvarius - upside+downside
Doedre's Damning - Build enabling (+1 curse)
Blackgleam - Build enabling (to a point)
Ambu's Charge - Build enabling (life regen)


I could go on, but I am sure you get the point. All uniques in the game are based on either being a build enabling item, or having upsides and downsides when compared with a rare counterpart. If the comparable uniques 'downside' is not really anyhting that matters, when compared with a rare counterpart, there is rather a problem of it being pointless to use the rare.

And by this I mean an 'average-good' rare, not a perfect rare.

Diablo 2 classic had this as well. It was the uniques with 'unique' stats, and for those stats, that unique items were valued. Otherwise it would just be rare items that are used for the 'better' rolls

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Lyralei wrote:

Its not a separate issue. Its a completely related issue pertaining to the bow itself regardless of drawback or no. If you are to address one thing, you should address things directly related to it. Even if you were to give it a drawback, everyone would still use it because of the underlying issue. And what do we have then? The same BiS scenario, except you made all archers weaker as if they weren't already pressed hard to be competitive to caster options.

Its a seperate issue to what this thread is talking about

With accuracy fixed or accuracy unchanged, Lioneyes would still be broken, because of its top physical damage/attack speed/+% physical damage rolls

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Lyralei wrote:

Unless you've played a character using accuracy and/or Lioneye's Glare at a high level please don't come and lecture me about them being separate issues.

I do play a character with accuracy (using the accuracy gem), so yes I do understand accuracy perfectly fine, as many other people do.

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Lyralei wrote:

If you still can't read, let me simplify it for you:
PEOPLE CAN'T USE ALTERNATIVE RARE BOWS BECAUSE OF ACCURACY, HENCE LIONEYE'S GLARE = BIS.

I'm all for giving it a drawback. Solve its associated problem while we're at it. That is all, thank you.

Yes, and guess what this thread is about ,its about Lioneyes, not accuracy

And believe it or not, your problem has nothing to do with accuracy. Its because you are level 97 and you are doing the hardest content, where mobs do such ridiculous damage that you need some equally ridiculous method of dealing with it (in your case, 100% hit + life leech)

That is why I don't take your complaints about accuracy seriously, its because you are scapegoating the games more serious flaws on accuracy. If you have a 95% chance to hit, and that is the difference between life and death, thats not an issue with accuracy, thats another issue entirely

Well I'm coming very late to this discussion, but I want to throw my 2 cents in as well.

When I saw a Lioneye's Glare linked for the very first time I looked it over as a avid bow user and thought to myself well that seems kinda shitty and never gave it another thought. Why you ask? Well because when I read the line "hits can't be evaded" I thought it ment the same as the Unwavering Stance keystone of not being able to evade any incomming attacks with out the upside of can not be stunned.

So with that thought in mind my proposed drawback for LG would be along the lines of can not evade any incomming attacks along with a -20% move speed reduction. This drawback would go nicely with the flavor of the lore text of allowing the never can miss. Based on your intense focus on aiming at your target which would cause you to lose focus on attacks coming your way and your slow reaction to moving out of the way of the attacks.

Me personally it would cause a difficult decision on choosing to use a LG and be a slow moving glass cannon or equipping a lessor bow and being a more mobile defensive dpser.

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velrac wrote:

So with that thought in mind my proposed drawback for LG would be along the lines of can not evade any incomming attacks along with a -20% move speed reduction. This drawback would go nicely with the flavor of the lore text of allowing the never can miss. Based on your intense focus on aiming at your target which would cause you to lose focus on attacks coming your way and your slow reaction to moving out of the way of the attacks.

So lets take a weapon that focuses on the dex side of the tree and rquires dex, and remove the ability to use the dex based defence and negate the already pitiful bonus from dexterity.

What

Have you tried getting decent amounts of defensive power with this thing without either going evasion, iron reflexes or kaom's? It's much harder than you would think.

Remember, no shield with two handed wepaons.

The most stupid thread I've seen in PoE forums. 27Pages of trolling. With current state of accuracy nodes this would make all top rangers quit the game, including me. And your saying "Use accuracy gem" WTF you have a 7L Chest or BOW? I love how people with lvl 30chars cry about how some item is broken.