Why does Lioneye's Glare have no drawback?

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Catchafire2000 wrote:

Improve upon the Ranger Tree and the bow will not be as "broken" as people are making it out to be. There's an issue with DEX as compared to INT and STR; I'm not sure what its use is for. There's a reason why people high tail it out of that area to begin with, because it is boring.

The only reason I bring up Ranger is because ideally they should be the class which maximizes the most from an LG, but the Ranger tree makes no sense as is.

http://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/1gxof8/eternal_and_diamond_supporter_newsletter_18/caozzq1

shut up already.

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SL4Y3R wrote:

Again, top tier affixes for dmg rolls, and ABOVE top tier for IAS.

Something seriously has to give. I would rather it keep its "always hits mod", and something else changes.

EDIT: Post a link to said thicket

Resolute Technique. You don't lose the can't miss and its a fair drawback. Well, as fair as fair can be without making Legacy versions.


But fuck you Lightning Arrow and your Static Blows.

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Moosifer wrote:

snip

Yeah, Ranger Tree love!

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Lyralei wrote:

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SL4Y3R wrote:

Again, top tier affixes for dmg rolls, and ABOVE top tier for IAS.

Something seriously has to give. I would rather it keep its "always hits mod", and something else changes.

EDIT: Post a link to said thicket

Resolute Technique. You don't lose the can't miss and its a fair drawback. Well, as fair as fair can be without making Legacy versions.


But fuck you Lightning Arrow and your Static Blows.

I mean, allowing it to still be able to always hit AND crit is interesting. It's....unique!!

Certain players like witches and shadows could find a use for something like this. It's the dmg and AS that's the problem IMHO. Those builds have low acc, and pretty much can't get to RT. LG would be a build enabler.

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SL4Y3R wrote:

I mean, allowing it to still be able to always hit AND crit is interesting. It's....unique!!

Certain players like witches and shadows could find a use for something like this. It's the dmg and AS that's the problem IMHO. Those builds have low acc, and pretty much can't get to RT. LG would be a build enabler.

No doubt. Unfortunately, no matter which way we go there'll be disgruntled parties. Less so if you go with the RT route, more if you change numbers (cause legacy omg end of the world). For Standard at any rate. Hardcore ones aren't that much of an issue.

Interesting fact: My Ranger has 70% chance to hit with 327 DEX/ no LG. Imagine how other users feel.

It's irrelevant if people get upset. So what. When something needs to be balanced, it has to be done.

If the bow changes, it can, and should be changed for everyone. This is an endgame item, not a silverbranch.

Just saying it again:

People need to stop looking into things as BiS

Uniques are MEANT to be either BiS as build enabling, or else be upside+downside (so BiS for a specific build setup).

Lioneyes currently is not upside+downside as does not have a significante nough downside. It is also not build enabling as it isn't only used in builds that wouldn't function without it.



Comparing it to kaoms, as another upside+downside where the downside is not well balanced (no sockets for the life makes it too powerful IMHO), is a fine thing, but koams itself is kinda in a weird place.

Comparing it to shavronne is stupid, as NO ONE would take shavronne for a CI/ES based style build, UNLESS going low-life, at which point shavronne is the BUILD ENABLER.





What we should be looking at is can we make it to a BUILD ENABLER, or should we be focusing on making it more balanced in regards to UPSIDE+DOWNSIDE
Some examples:
Build Enabling:
Facebreaker, shavronne, aegis aurora, quill rain
Upside+Downside:
koams, searing touch, voidholme (is one, but bad), cloak of flames, silverbranch

First, everybody might want to calm down a bit.

There's no reason to get so worked up about all this and the ultimate decision will be up to GGG. From what we've seen GGG has done since closed beta, it's an understatement to say that they know what they're doing and will hopefully make the right choices.

A balancing a game isn't as simple as simply changing values and all the issues are fixed. The most important part is seeing if the theories/suggestions given actually hold any weight in water by testing their effects in the Alpha realm. All this takes time and work. For example, the previous big patch lowered the monster damage while reducing our life was a pretty good patch, IMHO. It did make armor a much better defensive stat than stacking pure life from before. Life still seems very important right now (good luck getting to level 90+ on a life based build without a Kaom's), but maybe in the future they'll tweak it some more.

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Real_Wolf wrote:

Spoiler

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Athoy wrote:

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Nephalim wrote:

With regards to gear I will admit koams does something far beyond the allowable power curve of items (partly due to rare chest pieces only being able to roll a measly 109 life) and shavs for allowing spell casters to triple their dps at no true drawback. These 2 items are what I would call game breaking and meta defining. Lions eye glare is something i would call a slight oversight and primarily a result of the horrendous crafting system.

Truth.

Apologies for posting again, but some people just say the most ridiculous things.

For those who kept on complaining how Lioneye has no true drawbacks, do note that Shavronne's is also an item with "no true drawbacks" except for the relatively lower ES roll against a hard to find 800+ ES rare chest. Analogously speaking, a Lioneye also has a relatively lower DPS against an excellent, but hard to find rare bow. Lioneye also has the draw back of having low crit chance and doesn't roll any other amazing mods such as critical chance/multipliers or Chaos resists, if desired.

It's Lioneye's 100% accuracy and higher attack speed than what a max rare can roll that makes finding that rare bow very, very difficult since it'd need very high physical or elemental rolls along with high accuracy rolls to compete. If GGG, however, improves accuracy, things will be different and Lioneye's 100% chance to hit will make a much smaller impact.

Shavronne's is the BIS chest for most low-life builds just like Lioneye is the BIS weapon for most physical bow builds--and both items have very few drawbacks. For elemental bow builds, a top-notched rolled rare bow would still be better (but this will be more obviously better if GGG improves accuracy).

Difference is Shavronne is a build enabler. It ENABLES low life builds (now that life is nerfed low life, on life based, is impossible). If you aren't going "low-life", shavronne is not actually valuable. Comparable item is Facebreaker. Going unarmed, FB is required. Not unarmed? It is actually not that valuable in the glove slot.

Lion eyes is not a build enabler, as you can have the same build WITHOUT it.

The simple argument is that there should be two types of Uniques
Build Enabling ---------- Upside+downside

I think Lioneyes is very close to being in the correct place, its downside DOES exist, it is just not significant enough. It is not a build enabler, so comparing it to Shavronne is not that valid. Comparing it to Koams is, as Koams is a upside+downside unique.

Another upside+downside unique is something such as Searing Touch. It isn't build enabling, but it does restrict you to fire dmg, and you CAN potentially get better spell dmg, and better ES easily thanks to a shield, so it is not always BiS, though with its upside it can be.

Examples of upside+downside done wrong is some of the other unique bows, which are 'okay', but not nearly good enough to be considered BiS. Especially the chaos based bow, it just does not do any damage in comparison with even a badly rolled bow, and as such its downside is far too significant in relation to its upside (small amount of chaos damage).

So please stop saying that Lioneyes is like shavronne, and is BiS. There is NO aim for BiS, rather compare it in regards to the ACTUAL PoE goals of uniques, being build enabling or upside+downside. Koams has a good argument for having too much upside compared with downside, so does Lioneyes. We don't want these items to be useless, rather more like Searing Touch, where they are good if built into its strengths, but not BiS for everything related to them (lioneyes BiS for elemental and physical MOST of the time, can be beaten by good rolls but its slightly too high up the list atm)

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Real_Wolf wrote:

Spoiler

Just saying it again:

People need to stop looking into things as BiS

Uniques are MEANT to be either BiS as build enabling, or else be upside+downside (so BiS for a specific build setup).

Lioneyes currently is not upside+downside as does not have a significante nough downside. It is also not build enabling as it isn't only used in builds that wouldn't function without it.



Comparing it to kaoms, as another upside+downside where the downside is not well balanced (no sockets for the life makes it too powerful IMHO), is a fine thing, but koams itself is kinda in a weird place.

Comparing it to shavronne is stupid, as NO ONE would take shavronne for a CI/ES based style build, UNLESS going low-life, at which point shavronne is the BUILD ENABLER.





What we should be looking at is can we make it to a BUILD ENABLER, or should we be focusing on making it more balanced in regards to UPSIDE+DOWNSIDE
Some examples:
Build Enabling:
Facebreaker, shavronne, aegis aurora, quill rain
Upside+Downside:
koams, searing touch, voidholme (is one, but bad), cloak of flames, silverbranch

The "two types of uniques" in the game you have suggested is an inaccurate assessment of the uniques in the game. The two categories you've suggested leaves out other categories of uniques while seemingly suggesting that the two categories are mutually exclusive. For instance, GGG has stated that there uniques that are build-enabling, as you have correctly stated, but also uniques that are supposed to be more for pure powerful (e.g. Kaom's heart, Thunderfist, Lioneye's Glare, etc).

However, based on the designs of uniques, it seems that every unique in the game has a downside or drawback. Some drawbacks are more obvious as seen in Kaom's (no sockets--a power unique) and Facebreaker (no weapons, but also the subtle no defensive stats on the gloves--a build enabling unique), while others are more subtle such as the lack of defensive stats seen in Thunderfist and, Lioneye's lack of Crit mods (and possible Chaos resists mods) both of which are power uniques. The other example you've also brought up would be the build-enabling unique quill rain which has it's extremely low damage as the significant downside.

To state that the game simply has 2 types of uniques of "building enabling" and "upside+downside" would be committing a false dichotomy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma. It also happens to show a poor understanding of the uniques in the game.

The categorization of uniques which are either "build-enabling" or "upsides+downsides" is not completely accurate as all uniques were designed to have drawbacks built-in. Some drawbacks are more obvious, while others more subtle, and some are more significant, while others are less so.

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Lyralei wrote:

Oh and accuracy. Let me get 100% without needing a LG and I most likely won't use one, nor will any other top player.

A top tier Thicket bow has 249% IPD%, 45 flat IPD and 1.798 APS with 2 suffix spots for Chaos Resist and something else (assuming accuracy is a non-issue). There.

I've seen said mods on a bow before. Unfortunately it wasn't a Thicket. So its entire plausible. And by the way, that bow (even with its lower base APS) beat my LG on paper. Too bad it could miss.

Although I would say the comment that you "most likely won't use one, nor will any other top player." is a bit too strong of a statement, I agree with your overall point that if accuracy was improved, a well-rolled rare bow can finally have a much greater chance of outcompeting a Lioneye.

The best part about buffing accuracy is because of Lioneye's current power of granting a large amount of excess mana, a possible total of 7% extra IAS (20% max IAS) above the best rolled rare bow (13% max IAS), and relatively high damage rolls (but still inferior compared to the theoretical rare as you've correctly pointed out), people can see opt to use Lioneye as it will still be remain powerful if for nothing but the extra attack speed and relatively high tier (not highest possible) physical damage mods. It can still be useful and used in end-game for those that couldn't affording a 100 exalt well-rolled rare bow that they must mirror.

Buffing accuracy has the benefits of both nerfing the Lioneye without crippling it by changing the Hits Cannot be Evaded mod into Resolute Technique (which will be a sad day for crit users) and provide us with a better chance of Lioneye not being the sole BIS bow item versus a well-rolled rare. The same effects may be possible to be achieved if we also change the mods on the Lioneye to give a very high amount of accuracy, but not 100%. However that seems to directly contradict what the flavor text suggests.

Fuck templars/witches. They ve got their perfect balanced low life rf shavronne with HUGE drawbacks like bad ES bad resists!

Want drawback for lionseye? Increase dex requirement to 424.

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bvnl wrote:

Fuck templars/witches. They ve got their perfect balanced low life rf shavronne with HUGE drawbacks like bad ES bad resists!

Want drawback for lionseye? Increase dex requirement to 424.

This is just abuse of the fact that dex is a terrible stat.

When dex gets balanced, what then? The bow would become even better since dex would be useful, ending in a flat upgrade to everybody using it.

Don't use the imbalance of other mechanics as a way to balance out something else, because once the other imbalance gets fixed, it negates the other 'balancing'.