Why does Lioneye's Glare have no drawback?

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Nephalim wrote:

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I've been playing for 1.5 years. I've tried it before it was OP extensively. It used to do less damage and it was on a level 5X bow. Very strong and endgame viable, and could be beaten by more specialized rare bows with a little effort. The "Cannot Hit" mod made it interesting even without absurd power due to on-hit effects like knockback and life gain on hit.

I'm using it now when it stomps the shit out of every other bow in the game except for a mythical 40ex+ rare thicket with perfect rolls. Even then it doesn't account for the fact that accuracy counts twice for crit rolls. Going from 90% to 100% accuracy is more than an 11% final damage multiplier if you have any crit at all. RT doesn't count since it disables crits entirely (which are a large (read: ~20% on builds with Lethality/DeadlyDraw)) final damage multiplier.

I need some details on the builds (gear, passive, auras, health vs dps ratio) used to compare an ele thicket vs lions. Youre making a blanket statement that a lions outdps an equiv ele thicket under any situation which is flat out wrong. I am not talking about a 40 ex bow im talking about a 12-16 ex one which is still less than a crap rolled 6 lions.

Are you using blackgleams, are you using hatred(and in essence forced to use BM gem), are you using iron grip and are you calculating the passives lost from not being able to use rare quiver and most importantly are you also accounting for health/armor/resist in conjunction with dps.

It's a physical bow. You compare it to other physical bows and conversion ele attacking builds. You don't compare it to a single build since it's nearly the best bow for RoA/LS/IS/PA/BA/Split/Frenzy, Point blank or not, crit or not assuming they all do physical ele conversion.

An ipd,ipd+acc,flatpd and perfect aspd suffix thicket outdamages Lioneye's by a smidge when you include accuracy and crit calculations. Such a bow is also mirror service only since I would not expect more than a dozen to exist in all of Standard. Any lesser bow (read: every bow you've ever seen drop) cannot compare, and it takes high rolls on all affixes.

As for flat ele + aspd, a perfect tri-ele and aspd thicket does not outdamage physical conversion at the high end, but it is a hell of a lot cheaper.

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It's a physical bow. You compare it to other physical bows and conversion ele attacking builds. You don't compare it to a single build since it's nearly the best bow for RoA/LS/IS/PA/BA/Split/Frenzy, Point blank or not, crit or not assuming they all do physical ele conversion.

An ipd,ipd+acc,flatpd and perfect aspd suffix thicket outdamages Lioneye's by a smidge when you include accuracy and crit calculations. Such a bow is also mirror service only since I would not expect more than a dozen to exist in all of Standard. Any lesser bow (read: every bow you've ever seen drop) cannot compare, and it takes high rolls on all affixes.

As for flat ele + aspd, a perfect tri-ele and aspd thicket does not outdamage physical conversion at the high end, but it is a hell of a lot cheaper.

When I say build, i meant the gear (choice of quiver) and skills (what auras are used) not so much the primary offensive skill used.

Lionseye when used with WED based builds only really outperforms ele thickets when hatred+blackgleams is used and this forces you to use the blood magic gem which is one less support gem (generally faster attack for standard LA builds).

In summary:

Lions eye + blackgleam + iron grip + hatred + BM Gem (5-7 aura build)

is superior overall to (accounting for both life/res as well as dps)

ele thicket + rare quiver + BM passive (3 aura build)

However:

Lions eye + blackgleam + BM passive (3 aura build)

is about the same or worse than (accounting for both life/res as well as dps)

ele thicket + rare quiver + BM passive (3 aura build)


For everyone who is preaching for this item's nerf because it is overpowered relative to the competition, I must ask , are you using an aura based build that includes blackgleams and hatred. If the answer is no, then youre better off using a ele thicket and reaping the benefits of 5 additional affixes on your quiver or actually examining the numbers before declaring lions>99% of thickets simply because RT removes your measly 5% chance to crit.

For 5-7 aura based builds, yes, this bow will outperform all but the most powerful physical %,physical flat, light dmg, ias thickets and that would be absolutely fine if accurary nodes were less subpar, crafting was more fruitful, or lions were more expensive.

For 3 aura builds (wrath anger hatred) lions is marginally better or about the same as a cheaper ele thicket when you factor everything in- not just dps.

This item used to be worth 30 exalts and was better balanced at that price point. At 2 exalts each of course it will crush the competition. Imagine if koams cost 4 exalts, every rare chest piece that was not ES based would be garbage as well.

Surely if the Always Hits was changed to RT it would also be retroactive on all the bows as it is a change to the entire stat & not just an adjustment of the values. See the change to Voll's & Silverbranch for the difference between the 2. So that would mean that the old Lioneye's wouldn't become legacy items.

What I really fear is that GGG do decide to make a change but in the process make the old ones Legacy making a bad situation WAAY worse. Having a "no more wipes" attitude should hopefully men they are also going to do their best to not make legacy items a big thing but as the new league amulets & rings are apparently not going to drop in Standard after the leagues end maybe they just don't give a damn about that stuff(?).

im guessing the "drawback" is not so high physical damage, not as high as a good rolled harbinger anyway, but yeah the bow is pretty OP.

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Nephalim wrote:

When I say build, i meant the gear (choice of quiver) and skills (what auras are used) not so much the primary offensive skill used.

Well, that's also part of the problem.

Puncture needs a huge physical damage bow.
Frenzy benefits from a huge physical damage bow as well (large phys/frenzy charge bonus, 110% base physical damage).
Burning Arrow and Poison Arrow are "added as" effects and need a strong physical base.
LS and IS are "conversion" effects and can use a strong physical base.

Elemental Hit, the one skill that doesn't care about physical, gets a huge crit chance per quality bonus and Lioneye's is by far and away the best bow for any bow crit build.

Aside from Explosive Arrow (which is really just bow casting) and trying to use the Poison Arrow DoT with a +3 bow and Vulnerability (I've done it before, pretty meh), Lioneye's is very nearly the best possible bow for every job.

It's not a niche bow, it's just a hyper-powered "easy mode" button.
Every other bow unique is interesting.

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pneuma wrote:

It's not a niche bow, it's just a hyper-powered "easy mode" button.
Every other bow unique is interesting.

the other bows are not interesting they are just bad.

creating a second unique bow with about the same dps but no RT therefore cirt chance or multiplier would be nice to give a choice instead of killing the item.

also always hit is not the problem as you guys trying to make it
the problem is accuracy sux in this game and needs a rework

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zzang wrote:

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pneuma wrote:

It's not a niche bow, it's just a hyper-powered "easy mode" button.
Every other bow unique is interesting.

the other bows are not interesting they are just bad.

creating a second unique bow with about the same dps but no RT therefore cirt chance or multiplier would be nice to give a choice instead of killing the item.

also always hit is not the problem as you guys trying to make it
the problem is accuracy sux in this game and needs a rework

Quill rain is a very interesting bow.

Don't you dare mess with my Lioneye.

If the bow is as OP as some of you claim, then tell me why is it so cheap relative to a Kaom's or Shavronne's which go for much higher? In fact, I would say the bow is cheaper than the thunder fist and bringer of rain items as well.

Because a lot more of them were made at the beginning of OB compared to the others. Those were chanced frequently due to their high selling price. As more and more entered the market->lower price.

Kaom's is a higher base item, and was more wanted. Thus consistent high price.

Shavronne's wasn't introduced til later. Right before the chance orb change.