Why does Lioneye's Glare have no drawback?

Regardless, the correct fix is not a new keystone when the offenders are an unhealthy evasion/accuracy system and a broken unique.

Nerf the bow for all I care. I don't think there's anything great about it. Being a ranged player, you are limited to a few builds and the Ranger skill tree is pathetic.

Like someone said earlier, of all the OP things in the game you decide to single out this bow. What about a case for Kaoms, Shavronnes, or Spork builds that need to be adjusted? You will never see a Lioneye's Glare approach the kind of damage capable from Spork builds or discharge.

If you nerf this bow, nerf the other things I listed and make ES builds as sketchy as HP builds after the HP nerf.

ANOTHER POINT: Physical damage pales in comparison to elemental damage. I posted my elemental thicket up there as comparison. With the right build and auras, that thicket bow craps all over the Glare.

There are many uniques without drawback. Pls stop qq about glare.

"

Can we please drop the lore stuff and actually just think of a good way of dealing with whether Lioneye needs a nerf, and if it does, then what would be the most appropriate?

Every argument that wasn't lore based, you stopped responding to and you started focusing on the weakest (but still valid) point of my reasoning. And you're the one telling ME about red herrings...
Also, I didn't say that See Without Doubt MEANS my suggestion, I'm saying that my suggestion can fit with the text, and makes reasonable sense.

"

Catchafire2000 wrote:

Nerf the bow for all I care. I don't think there's anything great about it. Being a ranged player, you are limited to a few builds and the Ranger skill tree is pathetic.

Like someone said earlier, of all the OP things in the game you decide to single out this bow. What about a case for Kaoms, Shavronnes, or Spork builds that need to be adjusted? You will never see a Lioneye's Glare approach the kind of damage capable from Spork builds or discharge.

If you nerf this bow, nerf the other things I listed and make ES builds as sketchy as HP builds after the HP nerf.

ANOTHER POINT: Physical damage pales in comparison to elemental damage. I posted my elemental thicket up there as comparison. With the right build and auras, that thicket bow craps all over the Glare.

+1
+1
+1
+1
+1

"

Catchafire2000 wrote:

Nerf the bow for all I care. I don't think there's anything great about it. Being a ranged player, you are limited to a few builds and the Ranger skill tree is pathetic.

Like someone said earlier, of all the OP things in the game you decide to single out this bow. What about a case for Kaoms, Shavronnes, or Spork builds that need to be adjusted? You will never see a Lioneye's Glare approach the kind of damage capable from Spork builds or discharge.

If you nerf this bow, nerf the other things I listed and make ES builds as sketchy as HP builds after the HP nerf.

ANOTHER POINT: Physical damage pales in comparison to elemental damage. I posted my elemental thicket up there as comparison. With the right build and auras, that thicket bow craps all over the Glare.

Because Shavronns is not actually broken (the ES that it provides is pityful compared to end game ES gear) and Koams heart is only broken due to how life works (it actually took a heavy beating with the latest changes to life)

Spork builds do need to be looked at, there isn't any argument there, but Spork builds have been consistently nerfed over time (have a look at the changelog for Spark and spell totem for example)

Also the argument about the change being non retroactive because of player effort is a furphy. Plenty of builds have been nerfed to the ground (like the latest LA build), and guess what, people put effort into building those characters as well, and guess what, it was "wasted" (even though that is not the correct term)

This is a beta, get used to the concept of it being a beta, such things need to be fixed for the good of the game

I completely agree with Chris' post. Something in contrast would be the famous Marohi Erqi Karui Maul,


While it is possible to beat it with a rare, it is very hard to find something better than this weapon because it is one of the few possible 7L items out there. With that it has the design philosophies of being very powerful, but with a draw back of inherent localized reduced attack speed, reduced movement speed, and reduced accuracy. Because of this it almost always forces the player to run Resolute Technique and perhaps even Unwavering Stance if one does not cater their entire build to attack-speed items in the passive tree and gear.

While the Lioneye's Bow has all positive increases but none of the negatives.

That - MS. That alone balances the item lol. But yes, overall, that is a rather well balanced unique. Considering. It's still very very nice, but has some serious drawbacks that at least make you keep an eye out for something better.

"

Xendran wrote:

"

Can we please drop the lore stuff and actually just think of a good way of dealing with whether Lioneye needs a nerf, and if it does, then what would be the most appropriate?

Every argument that weren't lore based, you stopped responding to and you started focusing on the weakest (but still valid) point of my reasoning. And you're the one telling ME about red herrings...
Also, I didn't say that See Without Doubt MEANS my suggestion, I'm saying that my suggestion can fit with the text, and makes reasonable sense.

What do you mean? Have you actually read through my posts or do you just focus on the ones and parts that confirm what you want to think (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias)?

I've responded to things that weren't lore based by pointing out what appears to me flaws in the reasoning/ways to balance, just like how I think it'd be ridiculous to make Lioneye to be unable to use RoA, Split Arrow, LMP, GMP, Chain, and Fork even if the lore wasn't brought up. Making all Lioneye users not to able to use all those is a big freaking deal and completely changes the way people play and use the bow. That may or may not be a good thing, but we should try to find a nerf that isn't as drastic while still being meaningful and balanced, if possible is what I am saying. Also such a drastic change should have been implemented in the beginning if that was the original intent of the bow. I gave the theoretical example with an overpowered Taryn's, but you can think of your own examples.

I just focused on harping at the absurdity of using lore to justify balancing the item in, what I would consider a poor/obtrusive way, rather than a better solution to our problem. That's why I had to give so many examples of lore text because the lore was constantly brought up over.. and over.. and over again. What's considered "good" or "poor" ways of balancing is subjective of course, so feel free to disagree with my reasoning and I won't take offense.

I do agree with the lore only in the sense that it should not contradict the text/character traits the unique was based upon (Marceus Lioneye), if at all possible. Meaning the accuracy should still be 100% ("See with a doubt") and perhaps the increased attack speed (perhaps also increased mana--explained below) should remain ("Slay without hesitation"). I did mention that if messing with the attack speed (or accuracy, I suppose) is the best solution anyone can come up with, then by all means implement it even if it contradicts the text (if Lioneye can only get a max increased attack speed of only 10-15% instead of the 20%, it still fits the text anyway). However, I definitely wouldn't go as far as extrapolating those phrases to justify certain changes unless the changes are actually good and/or reasonable (this is subjective).

Silverbranch was nerfed, but it was nerfed in a way that didn't completely change the way the bow was used (still a good early game leveling bow, just not as effective). I was hoping something similar to that for Lioneye, if a nerf is even necessary in the first place. Bow users in general are pretty weak in the game at the moment anyway because of the dex stat being so weak in general, so giving them a strong unique with no drawbacks like Lioneye doesn't seem to tip the scale that much. At least for now, I wouldn't dare predict how the future patches affect the meta-game, etc.

"

deteego wrote:

Also the argument about the change being non retroactive because of player effort is a furphy. Plenty of builds have been nerfed to the ground (like the latest LA build), and guess what, people put effort into building those characters as well, and guess what, it was "wasted" (even though that is not the correct term)

I disagree and explained the best and as clear as I could why it's typically not a good idea to just nerf everybody's items once they've been rolled/obtained and how changing an item is vastly different from nerfing gems and changing the passive skill tree (they're basically bad analogies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_analogy). I've copied and pasted what I said previously in case you'd like to read it again here:

Feel free to disagree with specific points, but please justify your point of view based on logic, reason, and/or evidence.

"

deteego wrote:

This is a beta, get used to the concept of it being a beta, such things need to be fixed for the good of the game

Some of us have been playing the game since closed beta and are well aware that it's a beta and are used to the concept of beta. Even our characters and items were entirely (and justly so for fairness) wiped before open beta. No need for you to remind us that things should be fixed for the good of the game or that we shouldn't cry about our items or builds being nerfed. It's just not always so one sided and simple. There's a reason why Chris said it'd be "rude" to change items after they've been dropping. A good number of reasons.

"

kchow123 wrote:

Spoiler

I completely agree with Chris' post. Something in contrast would be the famous Marohi Erqi Karui Maul,

While it is possible to beat it with a rare, it is very hard to find something better than this weapon because it is one of the few possible 7L items out there. With that it has the design philosophies of being very powerful, but with a draw back of inherent localized reduced attack speed, reduced movement speed, and reduced accuracy. Because of this it almost always forces the player to run Resolute Technique and perhaps even Unwavering Stance if one does not cater their entire build to attack-speed items in the passive tree and gear.

While the Lioneye's Bow has all positive increases but none of the negatives.

Initially, I also looked at Erqi to justify nerfing Lioneye. Then I thought about it more closely and also looked at the mods compendium and realized that the % physical damage roll on Erqi is at the maximum range (249%) a rare mace would be able to roll. The increased stun duration mod is also over what can possibly be rolled on a mace. Take into account that it has a built in lvl 15 increased AoE gem which makes it effectively a 7L and one can see that if Erqi literally has no drawback, it'd be extremely overpowered. An extra gem is a big deal. Yes, the local physical damage roll could be a bit higher, but that's where a great rare could possibly have a chance to compete with Erqi.

Now lets look at Lioneye. The phys % dmg roll isn't even close to ~250% like a rare could roll. The local min/max phys dmg is also not nearly as high as a rare can possibly roll. What makes Lioneye strong and a unique is the mana since bows can't roll +mana, the attack speed is 7% higher than what a rare could roll (max is 13% on a rare), and the hits can't be evaded (although a rare bow can get a very high accuracy roll). Hits can't be evaded is basically a stronger version of resolute technique--but do keep in mind that dex users already have an insane amount of base accuracy to start so the 100% hit rate helps bow users relatively a lot less than other types of attackers since other attacks tend not to have as much dex and by extension accuracy.

So Lioneye's basically a high rolled, but not the highest possible rolled, rare with lots of mana, better attack speed, and an extremely high accuracy roll (though it's 5% higher than the maximum of 95%).

It is obviously still considered on the more powerful side, especially since it's an end-game unique, but it's nothing ridiculously overpowered like having a 7L in Erqi or +1000 HP in Kaom's where, if there aren't any significant downsides, would be obviously extremely overpowered. Lioneye is just "very powerful," but it may not necessarily be too "overpowered" if that makes any sense. And that's the way an end-game unique was supposed to be.

This is why if accuracy was fixed or became a lot easier to obtain, we're indirectly nerfing Lioneye by reducing it's impact of the 100% accuracy roll it gives to its users. The mana and attack speed are still good, but I wouldn't say game-breaking. Speaking of mana, it made me realized that the +mana could possibly be part of the "slay without hesitation" since to slay without hesitatation, one would need lots of mana and attack speed. Thus, reducing the mana and/or attack speed (make ~15 the possible max attack speed roll?) could nerf the bow a bit without drastically altering everybody's game-play (e.g. not allowing them to use RoA, Split Arrow, LMP, GMP, Chain, and Fork) while at the same time not contradicting the text/lore. And as mentioned, just reducing those things a bit could still technically fit with the lore, especially since no other bows can roll +mana anyway (only +mana leech from phys dmg and +mana gained on kill) and as long as the bow still have a relatively high attack speed. Do note that if the mana and/or attack speed is reduced, then Lioneye isn't really even all that powerful anymore so we must be very careful.

Everything isn't as simplistic as they seem. GGG put a lot of thought into items and into the game in general. This isn't D3 or WoW.

In conclusion, I don't technically think the bow is game-breakingly powerful enough to really warrant or justify a big nerf (especially if they improve accuracy), but I can still understand that it'd be reasonable for the bow to be nerfed. Should somehow be nerfed in PvP of course since it negates evasion, but we'll have that discussion some other time. It's all up to GGG. If they nerf it though, they better buff bow users in other aspects =P

All right guys. I think I am done with this thread. This is why I don't like discussions over internet because it takes so much time to type out every detail and to explain everything clearly instead of a more dynamic face-to-face conversation. Great discussion though and I learned a lot, so thanks.

Edit: The mods compendium is wrong--bows can only get up to 13% which is within the 11-13% tier as Lyralei stated in a later post

Absolutely no reason to nerf this item some people just like to spread misery. It is not OP it is a nice item and there are tons of uniques that have 0 drawbacks and not every item should have a drawback there is no reason simply good items can't exist.