Why does Lioneye's Glare have no drawback?

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Xendran wrote:

That's actually kind of a bad example, because this is taken from spartacus, and it is a spartacus inspired gladiator helmet. This makes the "cannot wear chest armor" mod fit perfectly within the flavor text.

Well Spartacus usually uses an armor and no helmet, so no.


More on topic: It should just have it's attack speed reduced. No point in changing anything else. Keep it simple.

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Sickness wrote:

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Xendran wrote:

That's actually kind of a bad example, because this is taken from spartacus, and it is a spartacus inspired gladiator helmet. This makes the "cannot wear chest armor" mod fit perfectly within the flavor text.

Well Spartacus usually uses an armor and no helmet, so no.

Crixus sports a bare chest (armor that covers things like shoulders or is a strap is not actual chest armor) and a bare head, however this combined with the fact that it's a gladiator helmet inspired by a gladiator show fits the no chest armor perfectly.

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More on topic: It should just have it's attack speed reduced. No point in changing anything else. Keep it simple.

Retcons the flavor text and the character who the weapon belongs to, leaves the item not truly unique. Keeping it simple is not necessary. The game is in beta, and thus beta-level changes will be made. This includes full revamps.

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Xendran wrote:

I just feel like instead of an arbitrary change, one can be made that would make sense regarding the way the bow is meant to be designed.

As mentioned, I actually have no clue what "the wway the bow is meant to be designed" or the lore behind Marceus Lioneye so I would not presume anything. If you or anyone actually know about the lore behind him, maybe we can have an actual discussion. More specifically, I am curious as what makes you think that he would be someone that thematically wouldn't be able to use additional projectiles or chain/fork, etc and how come that is more valid that the inability to cause status ailments, for example. You may be right, but we need to get someone in here who actually knows the lore of Marceus Lioneye to talk. If you do, please feel free to educate us on the original intent of the bow (not entirely sure how you know this unless you helped designed the bow with GGG or is a staff) and the lore of Marceus Lioneye.

But to be honest. I really think we need to move past the lore text, etc. We're talking about balance here and that's the point of the thread. Lore/text is important as long as it doesn't directly contradicts something obvious (e.g. I don't really expect any future uniques that is associated with the character Erqi to have a high attack speed, but that's just my speculation so I could be wrong).

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Xendran wrote:

Spoiler

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If we implement the changes you suggested, then that will effectively make both Rain of Arrows and Split Arrow useless skills to anyone using a Lioneye. They were meant to be aoe skills and hence their lower damage effectiveness. The solution proposed would make 2 bow skills to be completely nonviable because there are better single target skills that shoot only one projectile.

This will severely limit the type of skills a bow user can use. I am curious. How exactly/what skill were you planning on using as a bow user to do aoe damage if you can't use additional projectile or chain/fork?

Edit: It's also worth mentioning that the change of no additional projectile and chain/fork also makes the gems LMP, GCP, Chain, and Fork nonviable for all Lioneye users in case it wasn't obvious.

Ice and lightning skills are nonviable with The Searing Touch. Queen's Decree and Midnight Bargain are nonviable with non-minions. Taryn's Shiver is nonviable with fire and lightning. I don't see how some skills becoming nonviable with a specific unique that you are not forced to use is a bad thing. If anything, it balances it out further and makes it more unique. You would use this bow differently than you use other bows. That's the point of unique items. It shouldn't be a run of the mill bow with a fancy "cannot miss mod" and jacked up speed that breaks the cap. It should be truly unique and really convey its flavor text in the usage of the item.

You're playing too much into the idea of "I should be able to use any bow gem properly with this item because it's a bow". It does not limit bow users in any way unless the opt-in to use lioneye's glare.

It is much better, fully acceptbale, and commonly done, to make a unique that makes certain skills useless with it. It is different, however, to make a unique that can only be used with one skill when it was not intended to be only used with one skill, while also being BiS (i'm not saying they havent done this, but i'm saying that it's bad design).

What you suggested can be valid. However, such design must be set right at the beginning when the unique is first able to be dropped (similar to Searing, Queen's/Midnight, Taryn's, Storm Cloud, Bringer of Rain, etc) and not changed many months afterwards. Such drastic change would cause an uproar. We're not talking about a simple DPS nerf here, you're suggesting that all Lioneye users suddenly can't be using RoA, Split Arrow, LMP, GMP, Chain, and Fork. It's not a simple nerf as seen in Silverbranch where the +gem levels were reduced. If Lioneye had such restrictions right from the beginning, then that's fine.

To be fair, not being able to inflict status ailments can also be considered a pretty drastic change, but at least elemental Lioneye users can still use the bow and crit, they just won't be able to do insane damage with shock or have as great of mob control with freeze. It's not nearly as drastic as not being able to use RoA, Split Arrow, LMP, GMP, Chain, Fork. This will essentially cripple most Lioneye users, I suspect.

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Xendran wrote:

Also, the term "bow user" is not applicable here. The term you're looking for is "lioneye user". Not all bow users are using lioneye, and if you think they're forced into using it thats BECAUSE of how powerful it currently is.

You are correct. Apologies for not being more careful with the wording there. I tried to be, as evidenced by the paragraph you previously quoted me saying with "anyone using a Lioneye" and "LMP, GCP, Chain, and Fork nonviable for all Lioneye users." I just slipped when posing the question.

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Xendran wrote:

As for aoe damage...
1. Who says you need a bow gem AoE with it?
2. Pierce, totems, lightning arrow, ice shot, using *gasp* more than one skill such as supplimenting with minions or an AoE trap or mine, weapon swapping.

I am a big fan of ranged attack totem myself.

However, do note that the change you suggested means that the totem can't be linked to Split Arrow or RoA which a good number of ranged attack totem are linked with since they are inherently aoe based skills so it requires 1 fewer gem (and many 4L their ranged attack totems). One can still use Poison Arrow and Pierce I suppose. Sounds somewhat weak though without LMP, but I could be wrong. Lightning arrow without LMP and/or Chain also sounds pretty weak... and that's an understatement.

Regardless, I think the change would be too drastic at this point in time and GGG probably wouldn't implement such as an idea due to the huge ramifications (not being able to use so many gems all of a sudden, etc).

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Sickness wrote:

More on topic: It should just have it's attack speed reduced. No point in changing anything else. Keep it simple.

I apologize for actually bringing up the lore issue, but this time it's actually pertinent, I think. The text specifically says, "See without doubt, slay without hesitation." The first part obviously refers to the 100% accuracy, while the second part seemingly could be interpreted as fast attack speed since there's no hesitation.

But I could be wrong and if at the end of the day this is the best solution GGG or anyone else can come up with, then go for it.

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What you suggested can be valid. However, such design might be set right at the beginning when the unique is first able to be dropped (similar to Searing, Queen's/Midnight, Taryn's, Storm Cloud, Bringer of Rain, etc) and not changed many months afterwards. Such drastic change would cause an uproar. We're not talking about a simple DPS nerf here, you're suggesting that all Lioneye users suddenly can't be using RoA, Split Arrow, LMP, GMP, Chain, and Fork. If this was so right in the beginning, then that's fine. It's not a simple nerf as seen in Silverbranch where the +gem levels were reduced. Similarly, not being able to inflict status ailments is also a pretty drastic change, but at least elemental Lioneye users can still use the bow and crit, they just won't be able to do insane damage with shock or have as great of mob control with freeze, that's all.

This is a totally invalid reason to not change an item. This is beta. Beta level changes will happen. People will deal with it.

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I am a big fan of ranged attack totem myself.

However, do note that the change you suggested means that the totem can't be linked to Split Arrow or RoA which a good number of ranged attack totem are linked with since they are inherently aoe based skills so it requires 1 fewer gem (and many 4L their ranged attack totems). One can still use Poison Arrow and Pierce I suppose. Sounds somewhat weak though without LMP, but I could be wrong. Lightning arrow without LMP and/or Chain also sounds pretty weak... and that's an understatement.

You're significantly underestimating the power of a high speed 100% piercing lightning/ice arrow, especially with Increased AoE (remember that you aren't having your damage cut down by a huge amount from lmp/chain with this, and you can pierce a LOT of targets when firing into packs). Also, once again, the fact that RoA and Split Arrow are unusable with it is not a bad thing. It makes it so people use the bow differently. If you want to use lightning arrow with these other supports, use a different bow. Again, you're speaking as if every bow user is using lioneye's.

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Regardless, I think the change would be too drastic at this point in time and GGG probably wouldn't implement such as an idea due to the huge ramifications (not being able to use so many gems all of a sudden, etc).

It's beta. If you don't like the idea of drastic (not even really drastic. Drastic is a change to a core mechanic) changes like this, you should wait until the full release.

crippling the weapon of most if not all high level bow users is a drastic change if i ever saw one.

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Xendran wrote:

It's beta. If you don't like the idea of drastic (not even really drastic. Drastic is a change to a core mechanic) changes like this, you should wait until the full release.

What is with all the assumptions? I am all for drastic changes if they are warranted and necessary (changing dex, accuracy, evasion, reworking the passive skill tree for example).

What I am opposed to is drastic changes that make no sense and is more trouble than it's worth such as making all Lioneye users unable to use such a large number of skills and support gems.

I agree that the bow probably could use a nerf. How we go about doing it specifically is the key. We want to do it in the way so it affects Lioneye users not in such a drastic way but is still a nerf, if possible. For example, if we can somehow change the core mechanics to buff everyone's accuracy rating up, then Lioneye (and resolute technique I suppose) will get an indirect nerf. I am not saying that's a good enough nerf, but it's an example I came up with that can nerf certain items in the least intrusive way possible. Imagine that Taryn's was originally a staff that was too powerful and works on all spells so it's worth a large amount of currency and most spell-casters try to strive for it for end-game like bow users striving for Lioneye. To nerf it, Taryn's all of a sudden was made to work mainly with cold spells only like how it is now. Can you see that it's a bad/ridiculous way of nerfing an item?

I am also fine that the bow doesn't get a nerf because I am used to certain items being the most powerful in D2, but I can see where that can be a problem. One or two uniques here and there being the most powerful may be okay though, but I don't know.

This seems pretty good though even though I completely agree with OP there is still good rare gear out there.

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Nephalim wrote:

crippling the weapon of most if not all high level bow users is a drastic change if i ever saw one.

The people that would be "crippled" by this are the people who can't think of anything other than LMP Chain. There are other very good options. Seems to me like a lot of the complaints are revolving around the idea that it disables cookie cutter builds.

Also, no way can "most if not all" high level bow users afford to grab a lioneye. You're overestimating the average wealth of a player.

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Athoy wrote:

What I am opposed to is drastic changes that makes no sense and is more trouble than it's worth such as making all Lioneye users unable to use such a large number of skills and support gems.

Two skills, four supports. "Such a large number"?
Also, it makes perfect sense in regards to the item. I explained this earlier.

i was trying to find the guy who had the big helmet and no armor in the movie Gladiator, i think it's the first time they go out to fight in the arena.

but i found this instead, and it's an awesome helmet

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Xendran wrote:

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Nephalim wrote:

crippling the weapon of most if not all high level bow users is a drastic change if i ever saw one.

The people that would be "crippled" by this are the people who can't think of anything other than LMP Chain. There are other options.

Also, no way can "most if not all" high level bow users afford to grab a lioneye. You're overestimating the average wealth of a player.

I do not use chain nor lmp but I have invested a large amount of time and effort to achieve an efficient gear set that I do not want to see crippled that was "fine" for an entire year.

Lionseye go for 2-3 exalt for non linked and 6 exalt for FIVE LINKED and is easily in reach of many more players than say koams or shavs. This isnt the game breaking unique afforded to only a few.

I can only assume youre nowhere near what most people would consider late or end game to appreciate the impact of nerfing this item nor do you actually understand why it is (marginally) better than a high dps ele thicket and under what build variation and situation.

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_wuv_ wrote:

i was trying to find the guy who had the big helmet and no armor in the movie Gladiator, i think it's the first time they go out to fight in the arena.

but i found this instead, and it's an awesome helmet

silver alpha's howl?