Lioneye's Glare - Possibility for a nerf on an overpowered item?

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PuppetYuber wrote:

Based on that, someone could also point out elemental weakness can make up for all the damage loss from a top-tier tri-elemental bow? It also works for most casters. We are strictly comparing two bows + how it will affect rest of the equips / skill points optimization.

Using an elemental thicket lets you completely skip Iron Grip plus the fact you gain so much from an elemental quiver. Lets look at a perfect one:

Prefix: 36% WED, 99 Life, 28 Lightning Damage
Suffix: 10% IAS, 30% Chaos Resistance, <Suffix of choice>

Compare it to a garbage Blackgleam:
10% increased Attack Speed
+20 to Evasion Rating
+(10-30) to maximum Mana
(30-50)% of Physical Damage Converted to Fire Damag


LOL? Loss of 99 Life, Loss of WED, Loss of Chaos Resistance, Loss of FLAT elemental damage.


Bear in mind that the OP is arguing for LG being OP on the notion that everyone will use a Blackgleam when in actual fact, nobody uses it on the top 100. Why would we?

?_?

Iron Grip isn't mandatory for LG, but it is still optimized due to its location. Essentially there are only 2 optimized route for ranger currently (through iron grip, or through unwavering stance). Iron Grip still give massive boost to tri-elemental user, not sure why anyone would skip it just for that one point.

Also LG benefit just as much from that bis quiver as tri-elemental bow (if not more if you pick crit/crit multiplier as suffixes over res)

I am not sure why OP stated blackgleam (probably to address the current state of physical damage).

I would argue that its mandatory (or optimized as a route) for bows with high Physical Damage. If on a tri-ele thicket, you will not benefit much from it and as such might opt to take the lower route (if using BM) through Lava Lash up to the marauder tree and benefit more from the bonus of Anger+Fire Damage combined.

Having done the math, I'm fairly certain that both paths are identical in terms of defence and as such the difference between going through the middle and not is really a matter of offensive nodes.

It was Fruz who stated that LG+BG > Tri-Ele Thicket I believe, which is woefully ignorant in itself because of how pertinent it is to balance offence and defence. My stance is simple as always: A dead DPS is no DPS.

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PuppetYuber wrote:

Based on that, someone could also point out elemental weakness can make up for all the damage loss from a top-tier tri-elemental bow? It also works for most casters. We are strictly comparing two bows + how it will affect rest of the equips / skill points optimization.

Except projectile weakness is better. I'm saying this because that "hits can not be evaded" on lionseye is built into this curse. Now when looking at it for what it is, it's not hard to find a bow better than LG.

34% dmg for all projectiles and 24% knockback as well as up to 68% hit( which alone is better than the dmg increase of other curses) This is ignoring the pierce.

VS 49% dmg for fire/cold/lightning. (59% @ 20q) This doesn't effect EK either.

If taking advantage of the hit, you don't have to use a lionseye and can use a much better bow. You also don't lose out on crit and 2 skill points had you opted for the better bow. Overall it gives you more flexibility than ele. weakness. But most use conductivity which is extremely limited.


P.S. Of course I'm assuming you don't play with any ele melee or that they are not a big portions of your parties damage.

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Lyralei wrote:

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Flat elemental dmg sucks on quivers, I considered the WED already in some quick simple calculations 2 pages ago, having the whole dps scaling on WED on a full stuff comes first at the end, it sacrifices a bit survability.

But when it's much much much easier to acquire and removes the need for accuracy/resolute technique .....
And actually, by being able to skip completely accuracy / resolute technique, you can just focus on more defensive gear / passiv skill tree.
( I'm not the OP btw, just using his thread because I kinda agree with the original idea ).
why would we ? because it ... gives .. a better dmg output at the end ?

My bad for RoA, not using it though.
As I quickly read a guide from a high level player using RoA + LG, I kinda assumed that he chose it wisely, maybe it's not the case.

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I am not sure why OP stated blackgleam (probably to address the current state of physical damage).

because having 100% of the physical dmg converted to elemental dmg is huge, it makes a crazy scaling.

Yes, projectile weakness makes resolute technique not useful, but it doesn't work on every mob, it needs to be cast before you start dps, it doesn't necesserly take every mob in the area .... it not not absolute answer.
I don't like the design of curses in this game though, some I may not be really objective on this part.

Someone mentionned nerfing Kaom's H.
Well, this item at least has a big counterpart = no socket on it, making it not really usable for melee non 2H for example, or not allowing a single skill for bow ranger to be 5L/6L ( since the AOE skill uses the bow, well unless you are rich enough to have 2 bows + quiver and switch them of course ).

Damage is the last thing on my mind in hardcore when an Enfeebled Shrine Piety can hit me for 3.5k~4k damage in a single shot. Blackgleam is a bad item, period.


Actually, damage is the last thing on your mind for any high level player, default or hardcore. I've gone through this scenario many many times. Blackgleam is really appealing for DPS, but what am I losing by taking it in conjunction with LG? A lot. The count for dead HC 80+ players using LG+BG that I know of stands at 2 right now (from just oneshot reflects)

I would also even go so far as to argue that for two points, taking RT is a good thing because you then won't be able to crit and kill yourself.


LG is a very good bow no doubt, it only seems overpowered because its a no-brainer whereas using an tri-thicket requires you to itemize accordingly for it to shine.

damage is not the last thing on a high player mind, else such high ele bow wouldn't be so expensive ... since having capped resi is easy at some level with quite crazy gear, the only thing that one would really miss on the quiver is the Health bonus. IT maybe worth losing some dps though.

I don't have problems with reflexts since my character don't have enough dps for that, doesn't life leech counterbalance it ? or maybe you get the dmg first, then the leech, idk. I though LGoH was preventing reflect from what I had read.

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I would also even go so far as to argue that for two points, taking RT is a good thing because you then won't be able to crit and kill yourself

that's a good point, at some high level, it might be wiser to take it I admit.

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LG is a very good bow no doubt, it only seems overpowered because its a no-brainer whereas using an tri-thicket requires you to itemize accordingly for it to shine.

such a bow shouldn't have versatility in uses + really high phys dps + hits never miss ( + ridiculously high mana bonus too lol ) all together without any counterpart.
And be much more accessible than huge ele bows.

That's what I think is unbalanced.

While I don't think LG is balanced very well for a unique I am against it being nerfed for 1 reason & that is the precedent set by the latest Silverbranch nerf. If GGG are going to stick with the legacy items remaining in the game post nerf then I don't want to see LG nerfed as then we will be in a situation where there are a bunch of people with legacy lg's and everyone else would have the nerfed version. I think that situation would be worse than everyone being able to potentially find an op one.

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Fruz wrote:

damage is not the last thing on a high player mind, else such high ele bow wouldn't be so expensive ... since having capped resi is easy at some level with quite crazy gear, the only thing that one would really miss on the quiver is the Health bonus. IT maybe worth losing some dps though.

I don't have problems with reflexts since my character don't have enough dps for that, doesn't life leech counterbalance it ? or maybe you get the dmg first, then the leech, idk. I though LGoH was preventing reflect from what I had read.

Actually it is. Considering that I'm level 89, I think I should know. The counterintuitive problem to more damage is the fact that if you do TOO much damage you will kill yourself. LGoH and LL will not help this so you need to strike a fine balance or make do by removing support gems.

You forget to account for things like overcapping resists which is mandatory. Understand that sometimes you will be forced to run ele weakness/no regen/slow regen maps and as such you need to compensate because Purity is not enough to keep you overcapped and you cannot afford to pass up on the map due to good affixes on it (Maze/Packsize/+Monsters).

Also, more DPS does not help if/when I am two shotting packs. All the extra DPS does is to make me go from 2 to 1.5 shots and that really does not help. Have you ever done a ele weakness lower resist reflect map? You don't want DPS there ever because you can't leech at a fast enough rate. Other combinations are equally as lethal (slow/no regen + reflect).



LG is a Spike item by design manifesto anyway. Its intended for you to feel powerful using it but it does not and can not replace a perfect roll thicket which fits its design paradigm. I see no problems with the bow.

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Lyralei wrote:

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PuppetYuber wrote:

Based on that, someone could also point out elemental weakness can make up for all the damage loss from a top-tier tri-elemental bow? It also works for most casters. We are strictly comparing two bows + how it will affect rest of the equips / skill points optimization.

Using an elemental thicket lets you completely skip Iron Grip plus the fact you gain so much from an elemental quiver. Lets look at a perfect one:

Prefix: 36% WED, 99 Life, 28 Lightning Damage
Suffix: 10% IAS, 30% Chaos Resistance, <Suffix of choice>

Compare it to a garbage Blackgleam:
10% increased Attack Speed
+20 to Evasion Rating
+(10-30) to maximum Mana
(30-50)% of Physical Damage Converted to Fire Damag


LOL? Loss of 99 Life, Loss of WED, Loss of Chaos Resistance, Loss of FLAT elemental damage.

If you go for a build that utilizes a high physical damage bow, blackgleam will outperform any other quiver in the game in the damage department, by a long shot, its not even a contest.
Therefore, bringing up "loss of WED" and "loss of flat elemental damage", is rather moot since blackgleam brings a lot more "flat elemental damage" and outperforms every single elemental quiver out there.
You can bring up the defensive aspects of quivers, thats the only department in which they will outperform a blackgleam.

Here is my build:
http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/231709/page/1
It utilizes a physical damage attack (rain of arrows) and the skilltree is right at iron grip (you invest a single point).
You basically have about 120-150% physical damage increase just from the rain of arrows gem and the single iron grip skillpassive.

Now lets say you have a 200 physical damage bow.
With my build, those 200 physical damage are increased to 500 due to iron grip and RoA.
My perfect blackgleam converts 50% of that to fire damage.
Now those 250 fire damage scale with my elemental damage passives (i pretty much only have elemental dmg passives except for iron grip), and due to more weapon elemental dmg support, it scales at a 1.87 multiplier.
I have about 150% WED through skillpassives and gear.
Those 250 fire damage are therefore increased to 500 fire damage.
This 500 fire damage is then multiplied by 1.87, thus it is increased to 935.
935 - 250 base fire dmg (50% of base physical got converted to fire, NOT added) = 685 damage.
If you reverse calculate it you can find out how much base "flat fire" damage that amounts to.
685 / 1.87 (more weapon eledmg support) = 367
367 / 2.5 (weapon elemental dmg passives and rings/amulet/gloves) = 146 firedmg
It amounts to 146 base fire dmg.
Good luck finding that much base fire damage on another quiver.

It doesnt end here though.
Due to the increased physical (due to iron grip and roa) you can use hatred and added fire damage in order to use the high base physical damage as a scaling base.
Basically the 500 physical damage (after % physical increases) would add 500 x 0.39 = 195 fire damage due to added fire (which is then further increased through more weapon elemental damage), and another 500 x 0.25 = 125 cold damage due to hatred (which is then further increased through more weapon elemental damage).
Hatred and added fire dont work with elemental damage bows, but they work great with high physical damage bows, which then use blackgleam to convert 50% of it to fire.

As a comparison, if i equip a 25% WED quiver with a little bit of flat eledmg on it, i gain 8 times less damage than i do if i equip blackgleam.
Obviously my build is geared towards utilizing blackgleam with a high physical damage bow, but i will argue that i cannot achieve more damage with RoA if i utilize a pure elemental damage bow and usual eledmg quiver, due to how RoA works.
The amount of eledmg would have to be 80-150% higher on the eledmg bow than on the physical damage bow (in order to compensate for the lost physical damage increases from RoA and iron grip) (i cant tell for sure how much higher it would have to be since i would have to calculate a bunch of stuff).


I basically have a physical damage bow and a physical damage attack that profits from physical damage increases (of which i only utilize the best one: iron grip and roa physical damage increase), but since i convert 50% to fire, and add 25% of the scaled physical as cold, and 39% of the scaled physical as fire, and these are further increased by more weapon elemental dmg support, i am looking at 96% of my damage being elemental.
Yes thats right, 96% of my damage is elemental if i turn on anger and wrath on top of all the other stuff.
I am using a physical damage attack and a physical damage bow, but my damage is almost to 100% elemental damage.
This means that almost 100% of my damage scales with elemental damage increases, but since my base damage is physical, it also scales with physical damage increases.
This is how you use blackgleam. And for builds like these, blackgleam is the best dmg quiver by a long shot.

You obviously lose the life and resistances from the quiver, but as you can see in the build thread, i have 6400 life without kaom´s heart, and max resistances anyways.
Getting a good blackgleam is also easy as shit, while a good ele dmg quiver with life and resistances is impossible to come by.
Trading 200-400 life for a shitton of damage is more than worth it if your character is already tanky enough.

And you were talking about piety in the temple map being a problem with blackgleam?
Here you go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMdvwTf-7J0
(its a very old video, i have much less life than i have now, you can check out my newer videos if you like).
This is me killing her in melee range with my point blank roa bowrauder, using blackgleam.
I even did double piety since then, with this exact build. 98% res > double piety.
Its a bad item period.... NOT.