No respec options? No thanks.

"

ManiaCCC wrote:

Well..so E-peen is the reason?

Okey..not going to lie..it seems super stupid to me but I wont argue with that.

To me...ideal solution would be to create competitive league which wont allow respecing..and everyone could be happy.

Its not only for direct (PvP especially) competing, there are indirect competitions as well (Ladders). So, I dont would call it stupid...
Why in all world, should be the competition limited to only one league? That sounds way more stupid to me, and leads me to my other point:

Since one of the games goals/offers is that competition aspect, how many people would play in a league where they cant (or which is not meaned as to) compete?

And thats the second thing, respecs are influencing (IMHO): (most) people tend to take easier routes (since they gain them advantages), and a (full) respec option is an easier way to make your way.

If you're allowed by this to avoid problems with your build, to adapt the build to games demands and finally even to switch between different playstyles, you are not forced to play multiple chars - and that I afraid, will lead into decreasing population in the lower and middle parts of the game. What it needs for success, is a continuous stream of players, not an elitism camp of high- and highest-levellers.

I agree completely with what ManiaCCC said.

And using respec, pvp and ladder in the same sentence is kinda ridiculous, Mr_Cee. Are you a pro oldschool hardcore gamer or not? :p
Noob who can't spec a character won't bother with rushing the ladder.

I like the idea of seperated league, but instead of creating a new one, why not use the current system only for Hardcore?
It's called Hardcore for a reason...

"

kodr wrote:

That "hardcore" argument makes me laugh (especially when a supposed "hardcore" believer said GW was casual...)

If hardcore means grindfest nowaday, it's ridiculous.
Hardcore should mean challenging gameplay (that's where GW is hardcore, or games like Ninja Gaiden or Demon's Soul for those who know these games).

Putting points in a passive tree isn't hardcore.
Screwing your passive tree and be forced to start the game again isn't hardcore.
It's just meaningless grind.

Now, if there was some kind of strategy to kill stuff because the AI was challenging, that would be hardcore.

A million times this. Instead of making the monsters require good tactics to defeat, GGG chose to make the learning process as tortuous as possible.

The challenge should always come from the opponents, not from the interface. Of course you will run into the limits of the isometric format, but at least give it a try!

Same goes for games like SC1 and Dota. When I see people defend A-click to deny in Dota2 because right clicking on a creep is 'too easy', it makes me wonder how meaningless the game must be if pressing A is considered a valuable skill.

Of course the ARPG community is against tactical encounters and believes time spent grinding somehow equals difficulty, so yeahhhh. Meanwhile the rest of the world just buys Diablo 3.

"

Voldzito wrote:

If you screw up your build, then that only means, that you haven't studied the options, because now we have a Passive Skill Tree planner on the website and you should plan your character before doing any rash decisions - it's your fault you screwed up by picking non obvious choices and then whine about that.

Right on, punish your customers for not doing uninteresting homework in order to play a game.

They'd probably still get it wrong because half of the game mechanics are absolutely not obvious and you don't know what each skill does before you actually use it. Neither do you know how high enemy resistances are, which is kind of important to decide whether you want one or two elements. Neither do you know how high monster attack and defense ratings are, how many of them there are, what kind of items you can expect to get etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc so the skill planner is useless.

But if you are not prepared to waste your time making bad characters you are a NOOOOB, right?

[]

"

BrotherLaz wrote:

But if you are not prepared to waste your time making bad characters you are a NOOOOB, right?

No, youre a "noob" (you said it^^) if you think that its a wasted time.

Youre also "noob" if you call basic gameplay "meaningless grind".

Or if you believe that playing games isn't wasted time in the first place (;

And psychologically speaking - youre "hardcore" if you take your mistakes as a lesson instead of wasted time (;
The hardcore (the actual game mode - what a coincidence in names^^) players know this well.

Since you mention D3, and not only because of that. I read today a newspaper article about how (might be nothign new to some) Steve Jobs basically made his hundreds of billion business by doing opposite of what youre thought at economics school and what everyone else was doing.
He didn't make stuff that people were asking for, instead he made stuff he believed was best and they learned to love it. More so, making money was always secondary for him, its the motivation of his employees and his company that mattered, while the products was his own motivator.
Take it for what you will, but it somewhat reminded me of GGG.

"

kodr wrote:

And using respec, pvp and ladder in the same sentence is kinda ridiculous, Mr_Cee. Are you a pro oldschool hardcore gamer or not? :p
Noob who can't spec a character won't bother with rushing the ladder.

A noob may not rush the ladder, but maybe he crawls on it... ;)

Not only newish player make faults - and not only beginners would use offers to correct mistakes or to improve builds, so I see no reason not to sum this up...

The main issue becoming out of the balance dont start with the respec of a beginners char around level 35 (like the wish to do something mainly different when you're first facing diablo himself in D2) - the outbalancing comes from chars who finished the game on the top end, when the real competing starts in shape of exp-grinding, high level looting and endgame-pvp. -> the longer the life of a char was, the higher the advantage not to redo.

"

kodr wrote:

I like the idea of seperated league, but instead of creating a new one, why not use the current system only for Hardcore?
It's called Hardcore for a reason...

I really cant imagine to keep the default league out of a ladder-like competiton - like said: noone would stay and play there.

"

nermind wrote:

No, youre a "noob" (you said it^^) if you think that its a wasted time.

Youre also "noob" if you call basic gameplay "meaningless grind".

Or if you believe that playing games isn't wasted time in the first place (;

And psychologically speaking - youre "hardcore" if you take your mistakes as a lesson instead of wasted time (;
The hardcore (the actual game mode - what a coincidence in names^^) players know this well.

Point is.. quality of the game is based on entertainment value. Different people like different things..and while you can't make absolutely everyone happy (fan of strategies or poker wont play PoE), it's important for game like these to provide good entertainment value for most potential players if possible.

Many people just think it's waste of time to reroll or grind orbs..because they don't enjoy it at all.. They already followed game rules. All they want is way to enjoy game without being forced into things what they hate.

With current system GGG are catering just to hardcore/oldschoolers .. which is fine..but Ignoring the other huge group of players is not smart. Current respec system is clunky. I understand it's good for their philosophy "if players want to play different character, they should reroll different character"..it's good for you..for other hardcore ..hell, its good for me because I don't use respec too .. but current philosophy will cause many players to leave/not play the game.

I have few friends which were playing beta with me but they left and wont play it again until proper respec system will be in the game. And while I enjoy PoE... I can't see how I can play this game in the long run over D3 for example where all my friends will be probably (because they are allowed to enjoy game in way they like)

Again..League system is set and ready. Now it's time to utilized it in right way. They can keep both group of players happy. There is no good reason to not to do.

"

Since one of the games goals/offers is that competition aspect, how many people would play in a league where they cant (or which is not meaned as to) compete?

Actually non-competitive game/modes are very popular even in competitive games. And TBH.. PoE is not so competitive oriented game (good example is Starcraft... this is competitive game..gameplay wise and even their ladder system ..and even here...non-competitive games are super popular)

But if you think if ladder is why people are playing these games.. It's not so hard to created two different ladders (or three with hardcore)..separated ladder for each league..

"

BrotherLaz wrote:

"

kodr wrote:

That "hardcore" argument makes me laugh (especially when a supposed "hardcore" believer said GW was casual...)

If hardcore means grindfest nowaday, it's ridiculous.
Hardcore should mean challenging gameplay (that's where GW is hardcore, or games like Ninja Gaiden or Demon's Soul for those who know these games).

Putting points in a passive tree isn't hardcore.
Screwing your passive tree and be forced to start the game again isn't hardcore.
It's just meaningless grind.

Now, if there was some kind of strategy to kill stuff because the AI was challenging, that would be hardcore.

A million times this. Instead of making the monsters require good tactics to defeat, GGG chose to make the learning process as tortuous as possible.

The challenge should always come from the opponents, not from the interface. Of course you will run into the limits of the isometric format, but at least give it a try!

Same goes for games like SC1 and Dota. When I see people defend A-click to deny in Dota2 because right clicking on a creep is 'too easy', it makes me wonder how meaningless the game must be if pressing A is considered a valuable skill.

Of course the ARPG community is against tactical encounters and believes time spent grinding somehow equals difficulty, so yeahhhh. Meanwhile the rest of the world just buys Diablo 3.

"

Voldzito wrote:

If you screw up your build, then that only means, that you haven't studied the options, because now we have a Passive Skill Tree planner on the website and you should plan your character before doing any rash decisions - it's your fault you screwed up by picking non obvious choices and then whine about that.

Right on, punish your customers for not doing uninteresting homework in order to play a game.

They'd probably still get it wrong because half of the game mechanics are absolutely not obvious and you don't know what each skill does before you actually use it. Neither do you know how high enemy resistances are, which is kind of important to decide whether you want one or two elements. Neither do you know how high monster attack and defense ratings are, how many of them there are, what kind of items you can expect to get etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc so the skill planner is useless.

But if you are not prepared to waste your time making bad characters you are a NOOOOB, right?

If you read the thread you'd know that for most people it's not about making the game easier or not, it's about keeping the game fun. I'd explain it again but I already have several times so I'd just advise you to go back and read.

Also monster AI has nothing to do with this thread at all, it's a completely seperate issue so I'm not sure why you're even bringing it up.

Would you kindly read my f#ing post? OF COURSE it's about challenge, that's the whole argument of the anti-respec crowd.

"

ManiaCCC wrote:

Different people like different things..and while you can't make absolutely everyone happy, it's important for game like these to provide good entertainment value for most potential players if possible.

Not really. Players which dont enjoy to concern with all (or at least the most) aspects of a game like this, could not be expected to be the reliable base of the game on a longer term, their interest will mainly be more short-termed, trial-and-leave... and only the fewest of them may spend money on it... there are enough potential players among them, I'd say.

If you not focus on the most attracted community, you may loose all.

How do you expect the relation between casuals and oldschoolers in D2 to be actually? The real addicteds ("oldschoolers?")keep it alive - even now.

"

ManiaCCC wrote:

They already followed game rules. All they want is way to enjoy game without being forced into things what they hate.

No they dont, as they demand the game to be a more-casuals type - or full-casuals in the end, cause this wouldnt stop... Even if there are games that proves, to set on casuals mainly, could work, doesnt give the right to demand that style for every other game too.

"

ManiaCCC wrote:

With current system GGG are catering just to hardcore/oldschoolers .. which is fine..but Ignoring the other huge group of players is not smart.

There is no real way to 100% please them all - maybe beside Blizzards actual way... and even if (what I assume) D3 will impress a lot of people (its what they are harderst work on) - nobody can say, how long this will be, how long it will be able to attract others than pure casuals.