Feedback and Suggestions - The promise of a shared endgame fooled collectors and standard players - Forum

" exsea wrote: i ve been here for a long time, and yes, poe now is not the same as poe of before. but everytime something new was added, i asked myself, do i still like the game. the experience many ppl have here on poe is very unique as our likes/dislikes for the game changed over a long period of time. charan got so pissed off he rage quit. some people stay some people dont. but most of us like poe for how it is now. the way i see it poe pre ascendancy was akin to diablo 1, after that its more d2. the changes felt more of the same. i will agree that something really were different, but it was something that many of us accepted. I get it and I can appreciate what you are saying. I did the same myself, deciding whether or not I still liked the game. But I also feel that I LOVED what PoE was for the first 5 or so years of it's existence. And I WELCOME a return to that feeling re: PoE 2. BUT I wouldn't want that forced on me as a massive game-changing patch. Part of the issue here is the 2019 announcement...as you said if you look purely at the game differences objectively, it is BETTER that PoE 2 is a separate game. That is what the devs decided as well. The issue is not necessarily about the two games, but rather the communication around it. I would also like to say that my playtime per league in PoE has gone down significantly. The last few years of league patches in PoE have been...lackluster. In my opinion, we are at the point in the game where there really isn't anything innovative they can do to "change" the game. It's all just either power creep or power nerf. But with PoE 2, its a fresh start to actually make meaningful changes and impactful leagues on a fresh, unbloated base. It should also be noted that, almost always, nerfs are met with outrage. See D4 season 1...see the league where support gems were nerfed, etc. Every time GGG tries to make a meaningful change to player power it is met with incredible backlash. Now put that into the scope of changes that PoE 2 was advertising, even back in 2019. The devs would have had a war on their hands. Many people are unhappy right now, but not up in arms because...they aren't being nerfed in that sense. Last edited by jsuslak313 on Jul 31, 2023, 11:35:02 PM	Posted by jsuslak313 on Jul 31, 2023, 11:30:09 PM On Probation Quote this Post
" jsuslak313 wrote: " albert2006xp wrote: Are you joking? The game we have now is built on top of that early game. We've seen it evolve slowly bit by bit over 10 years. With slow feedback, step by step changes and adapting of the players. Making that kind of change in an instant is way different and I think PoE2 is more different than PoE is vs early PoE. Okay...I'll take the bait again even though I know I shouldn't by this point. What the hell do you think PoE 2 is built upon? Thin air? Look at the gameplay, the interface, the skills, the character design, the skill tree, literally everything about it. It is built on the SAME base that current PoE is built upon. The difference is that it resets a ton of powercreep and makes massive QoL improvements alongside a brand new campaign and endgame, and new characters. You seem to be under the impression that PoE 2 is hands-down a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT game when it really isn't. As far as PoE 2 vs. early PoE 1: no...PoE 2 already in the videos is faster and smoother than PoE was in the beginning. If you don't believe that, check out gameplay videos from 2012 and 2013 and compare them to the gameplay videos we have seen in PoE 2. They look eerily similar, albeit MUCH smoother and faster in PoE 2. Sure, the changes to PoE were gradual...sort of. There have been noticeable instances of ENORMOUS sudden bursts of power in PoE, similar to the reverse direction being taken for PoE 2. Delirium League being one such example: the invention of cluster jewels irreversibly changed the power dynamic of PoE. It was neither good nor bad in my opinion, I liked the game before clusters and I liked the game after clusters. But it also had the side effect of coloring every single update that came after them, forever altering the development path. Another example: influenced gear that came with Conquerors of the Atlas. ENORMOUS, somewhat game-breaking power increase that started an out of control spiral. Rather than destroy the current game through MASSIVE nerfs and gameplay changes, GGG opted for a separate game. So that players can have BOTH: the zoom of PoE, along with the fresh new start that is PoE 2. I can 100% guarantee there would be far more outrage if GGG suddenly decided to slam PoE 2 down onto PoE 1 as a new patch. The backlash has happened before: Potion reworks when they first came out were met with incredible vitriol. Whenever GGG decides to nerf a build out of existence, those that play the build foam at the mouth. If they did that to the entire game, they would effectively destroy the game for everyone. They would attract no new players because its still the same "game", and they'd lose a ton of existing players that don't want the change. But with the two-game system: existing players will play both, or they will stick with PoE 1. But PoE 2 will attract new players without turning off any old players. And also: YES!!! The devs want a different game. They have explicitly said so in many many many interviews. They have proven that by TRYING to clamp down on power creep unsuccessfully for years. Basically, the devs backed themselves into a hole. With the additions that I outlined above, there is NO WAY to recover what they lost in PoE wihout it being a separate game. They tried to by releasing Ruthless: but ruthless isn't a fix...its simply an extra grind. PoE 2 as a separate game is a FIX to all the problems they themselves created and dislike about PoE 1. However; they recognize that many current players DO NOT see these as problems and would much rather continue as-is. Hence, PoE 1 running side by side with PoE 2 rather than forcibly smashed together into some amalgam of a game that neither new or old players would actually like. The difference is it removes content. PoE has very rarely straight up removed content. PoE2 doesn't have the Scion class, might not have divination cards, crafting might be unrecognizable and simplified (cardinal sin), the old maps are probably replaced by entirely new maps with the PoE2 tilesets. If you played from PoE then to PoE today, you gained content, you gained features, changes, expansions. If you jump to PoE2 you lose a lot of content to gain content. To the point that it doesn't resemble PoE anymore, so much so they're willing to keep both. People are so god damn focused on speed. Oh my god, it's so irrelevant get over yourselves and just play at the power the developer balances. Don't be a baby. What matters is the content you're doing. The fact this idiotic zoom vs slow debate is causing a rift is just beyond ridiculous. Just take the nerfs like gamers. You say thank you but I will still crush your game and move on. They can't slam PoE2 instead of PoE1 simply because of the difference in content. Losing far too much content. If they stuck to the original 4.0 plan, the content would've had to be prioritized, changes would've had to be toned down a little in terms of removing crafting options all over the place, you couldn't debate whether to remove divination cards because those were supporter paid, etc. Just tell the nerf whiners to deal. Let them deal. Your solution is far worse. Even to them, but they're too dumb to notice yet. If PoE1 doesn't justify massive leagues after PoE2 is released, it could slowly die and be put on life support, which just slow boils their stupid playstyle like a lobster into inexistence. They could just compromise with those people and reach a middle ground. Like as developers of this game you should put it first and try to do whats best for it and what's best for PoE isn't getting replaced by another game. This refusal to compromise and reign back the ideas they have for PoE2 at the expense of the game we've put so much time into is my whole problem with this situation. Causing two games to exist because you've gone so far that you fear you won't have a playerbase if you don't offer the old one... You screwed up. Plain and simple.	Posted by albert2006xp on Jul 31, 2023, 11:36:05 PM Quote this Post
"Lose a lot of content to gain new content?" ITS A NEW GAME. You lose nothing. It's ALL new lol. That is the effing point. PoE 1 STILL EXISTS. You keep talking like your entire game is being erased out of existence. It'll be a good long while until PoE 1 dies, but die it will as every game SHOULD. Innovation should always trump artificial stretching. Adding and adding and adding content is not a good thing. Things in PoE SHOULD be removed. The game would be a lot better than it is if the developers did that. That is not saying its bad, that's saying it could be BETTER. You mentioned (can't remember if it was this thread) that in 10 years time PoE 2 might go the same way as PoE 1, and a PoE 3 might come out. FANTASTIC!! I hope its sooner than 10 years from now! I've already said that I have never once expected (or wanted) a single game to exist continously forever. That is so stupid to me. It's severely limiting to the creativity and development of games. Seasonal games like PoE offer a LONGER timeframe of existence, but it certainly doesn't offer INFINITE existence. Nor should it. Last edited by jsuslak313 on Jul 31, 2023, 11:49:23 PM	Posted by jsuslak313 on Jul 31, 2023, 11:44:19 PM On Probation Quote this Post
" jsuslak313 wrote: "Lose a lot of content to gain new content?" ITS A NEW GAME. You lose nothing. It's ALL new lol. That is the effing point. PoE 1 STILL EXISTS. You keep talking like your entire game is being erased out of existence. It'll be a good long while until PoE 1 dies, but die it will as every game SHOULD. Innovation should always trump artificial stretching. Adding and adding and adding content is not a good thing. Things in PoE SHOULD be removed. The game would be a lot better than it is if the developers did that. That is not saying its bad, that's saying it could be BETTER. You mentioned (can't remember if it was this thread) that in 10 years time PoE 2 might go the same way as PoE 1, and a PoE 3 might come out. FANTASTIC!! I hope its sooner than 10 years from now! I've already said that I have never once expected (or wanted) a single game to exist continously forever. That is so stupid to me. It's severely limiting to the creativity and development of games. We're literally talking about moving to play PoE2 instead. So yeah, that's how it works with "new games", you lose the old stuff and play the new stuff. The old existing doesn't change that unless you full time play both. Which most people aren't going to just double their PoE time for. No, games like PoE shouldn't die, they should evolve. Innovation can be done while evolving a game. This is almost hateful towards the game. To me adding and adding content just makes a game better. It is insane some people would rather we remove content for no logical reason and some completely fucking idiotic gross reasons like "but it confuses new players"... GOOD? Not everyone is meant to be a PoE player. The more content the better a game is. I'm glad other developers like Riot or even bloody Blizzard with WoW know better than to try to make a new game in the same genre as their old. It's insanely wasteful. You can just work on one and make it the best game in its genre. Or keep making new games and they will never be as good. I don't understand your logic. You are willing to abandon your games, your big, big time investment games. You're even happy to throw PoE2 away really soon for a new shiny. You're like the perfect FIFA or CoD customer. Ironically with FIFA it's basically the same game they just sell it to you again. Is the game good or is it not? What is the point of a new one instead of trying to perfect one? It's not limiting at all when you have games at this scale and popularity with constant players in them. That affords you something special, the opportunity to keep working on one game until it is fantastic.	Posted by albert2006xp on Jul 31, 2023, 11:59:30 PM Quote this Post
" jsuslak313 wrote: I get it and I can appreciate what you are saying. i have no doubts that everyone here loves poe/poe2 i dont see why people can get to the point of being rude to one another. " jsuslak313 wrote: it is BETTER that PoE 2 is a separate game. this is an objective fact if we're talking about the new game GGG has presented to us " jsuslak313 wrote: I would also like to say that my playtime per league in PoE has gone down significantly. The last few years of league patches in PoE have been...lackluster. In my opinion... have you ever wondered WHY in the last few years the league patches felt that way? for me i've always wanted melee to be improved. it hasnt. the easy answer is GGG didnt dedicate resources to improved POE1 directly, they gave "barebone support". did GGG give up on POE 1? NO they did not. at least not yet. if you remember the exilecon 2019 announcement, POE2 WOULD fix the issues of POE1. but somewhere along the line GGG decided that POE2 was more important than POE 1. i strongly believe POE2 encapsulates everything that chris ORIGINALLY wanted for POE. his dream game, his vision. somewhere along the line he said fuckit. i WANT that game. he reasoned it needed to happen, he needed to capture a new audience. well that's what i theorize. theories are just theories, but we can see how plausible it is in the actions that GGG took. separating the game means actively taking away all the work and time put for improving POE1. i think a lot of people who dont understand why people complain about poe2 simply see it as not appreciating poe2 i personally feel poe2 is gonna be a great game. i think many people can also agree to this, objectively. whether or not they enjoy poe2 can be different. but the biggest takeaways for people like me specifically is that POE2 was meant to be more of poe1 and fix poe 1. and the thing we're really complaining about is that POE2 isnt that. if a different company with different resources developed the "new game separately", i bet NO ONE would bat an eye. but thats not the case. GGG took our time and money. they went back on their word. POE1 is now in a worse place thanks to POE2 developed as a separate game. [Removed by Support]	Posted by exsea on Aug 1, 2023, 2:14:24 AM Quote this Post
" jsuslak313 wrote: "Lose a lot of content to gain new content?" ITS A NEW GAME. You lose nothing. It's ALL new lol. That is the effing point. PoE 1 STILL EXISTS. You keep talking like your entire game is being erased out of existence. It'll be a good long while until PoE 1 dies, but die it will as every game SHOULD. Innovation should always trump artificial stretching. Adding and adding and adding content is not a good thing. Things in PoE SHOULD be removed. The game would be a lot better than it is if the developers did that. That is not saying its bad, that's saying it could be BETTER. You mentioned (can't remember if it was this thread) that in 10 years time PoE 2 might go the same way as PoE 1, and a PoE 3 might come out. FANTASTIC!! I hope its sooner than 10 years from now! I've already said that I have never once expected (or wanted) a single game to exist continously forever. That is so stupid to me. It's severely limiting to the creativity and development of games. Seasonal games like PoE offer a LONGER timeframe of existence, but it certainly doesn't offer INFINITE existence. Nor should it. The thing is you reason like a gamer who mostly plays singleplayer games and although path of exile is online, you tackle it like a ssf singleplayer game. I started Path of Exile because it was online, community driven, and the devs promised me that items would matter in the longterm. There are other online games out there that still respect the items players gathered throughout the years and some of these games are still running since the nineties and are continuously updated. Really powerful or rare items that could only be obtained through hard achievements or special events: items that have a long history and new players look at in awe. I would love to see my race rewards and foils in Path of Exile 2. With the advent of Season 1, Chris told us the rewards are items with special collectible artwork, that would be valued in the future. My intention is to never sell these but I was hoping for updated artwork on all of them. Some dont even have artwork after 10 years {looking at you Shiversting and Aurumvorax} although it 'was coming soon'. It is true however that Race Rewards were RMTed and I bet this is the reason that GGG doesnt care about them anymore and stopped giving them proper art. But that doesn't do justice to all original players who obtained them in a fair way. I think Chris is rather rid of them all. Heart of Purity Awarded 'Silverblade' to Talent Competition Winner 2020. POE turned into a ratrace for the most div/hour. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDFO4E5OKSE	Posted by Reinhart on Aug 1, 2023, 2:37:41 AM Quote this Post
The uncoupling of PoE 2 from PoE 1 might be the best thing in the long run. Not improving the animations, engine and/or optimizations to the same level is the worst case scenario. I can understand why Devs are looking to dismiss the "work" of doing PoE 1 "right" by keeping the current engine and only "improving" it so MTX can be used in both PoE 1 and 2. The Devs also need to understand that they need to "GIT GUD", as they now have no longer the luxury of "the excuse" that MELEE, or that trading (remember asynchronous trading promises anyone?), or various other QoL will be fixed for PoE 1 when PoE 2 gets released. They actually need to put in the work in continuously updating AND improving PoE 1 "up to snuff" regarding the above (sure, within the limitations of the current engine if needed). The updates need to get back to increase in scope, balance and lore wise. The good news is the uncoupling of PoE 1 and 2 will now remove the "shackles" of expectations regarding "silliness" - embrace the zoom-zoom and huge balance swaps, as they won't "mess" with the "original VISION" - they have PoE 2 for that, get that one as close as possible to it and no one should complain anymore. Not doing the above ASAP, and prefacing the next update with a few manifestos regarding the direction of PoE 1, will only lend credibility to the concerns that the Devs knew a lot longer (at least between 6-24 months ago, during which they should have come open and let us know about it), about the split. I'm a recent Voidborn supporter, that might have chosen to delay any support if I would have been properly informed about the split, and Devs backtracking on their promises of the "Exile CON in 2019". The latest announcement felt like the name was appropriate for the wrong reasons - "Exile CON 2023" is now a reality for us. I've also spent a hefty amount on supporting the Devs even when I didn't agree with their choices. After a letdown of their major choice regarding the uncoupling, and the further letdown of the rework for both Guardian and Chieftain, got the hype for both PoE 1 and PoE 2 down to negative levels (and this is from someone that enjoyed PoE 1.3.0-1.4.0 playstyle). I'm simply tired of getting the shaft... Their next manifestos, patch notes and updates will need to be surprisingly good to make me consider "supporting" again. I know there are others thinking and feeling this too. The only hope I have left as a Standard player, is that in the case they will want to phase out PoE 1, they will consider sharing a standalone version of all the game (will pay AAA price for it, no questions asked), to be playable offline and via LAN in case they will shut off the servers - and would allow us the chance to continue to enjoy PoE 1. PSS: Our almighty TencentGGG overlords are very scrupulous regarding criticizing their abilities to take proper decisions and consider everything "needlessly harsh and condescending"... Good to know "free speech" doesn't apply in any form or manner on the forums these days...	Posted by sofocle10000 on Aug 1, 2023, 7:16:04 AM Quote this Post
I don’t mind losing some content providing that they would start merging PoE’s content into PoE2 slowly through leagues. As long as they don’t start the power creep it would be fun. Alva making a time rupture by accident (I’ve done it…errr we’ve done it) and bringing timelines together…	Posted by TIGRElaranja on Aug 1, 2023, 8:34:43 AM Quote this Post
Some ppl payed money to create div cards for certain uniques or payed to create uniques, assuming they would transition over to poe 2. They basically got scammed. Its not about some pixels, but could go to court, if some whales deciding they feel betrayed/scammed. Sure its sad for std players and collectors, they disrespecting all the time we spend on the game, but for those paying for uniques or div cards, its much more worse. Grandmasters will be gone, voidborn keys, div cards, plenty of uniques. Its really baffling me, that they even risk the possbility of a lawsuit, since they basically scammed all the ppl since 2019. But im no lawyer.	Posted by Ronskibonski on Aug 1, 2023, 8:54:49 AM Quote this Post
" Jix_91 wrote: " Lonely.Cat wrote: Honestly... WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT? PoE is a game, which provided you with content almost every 3 months. And almost each time it was a freaking good experience. In a f2p game. With no lies, excuses, never did they disrespect their players, and never did they try to squeeze money from them. From us. So every time I started to play new league, I bought a support pack. As a 'thank you' to GGG's dev team, because I could enjoy new builds, new skills, new mechanics, etc. P.S. all the MTX will be transfered to PoE2. So you, guys, loose nothing. With no lies -> wrong excuses -> wrong never did they disrespect their players -> arguably wrong never did they try to squeeze money from them -> very wrong I don't think its worth to have a conversation with you. Just wanted to state you should check your facts (they aren't facts). What did they lie to you about? What excuses did they make to fail your expectations? How did they disrespect their playerbase? And how tge fk did they squeeze money from anybody? You just say I am wrong, while not telling me why. Do you have actual facts, or that's just how you feel? Two different things. Last edited by Lonely.Cat on Aug 1, 2023, 9:00:41 AM	Posted by Lonely.Cat on Aug 1, 2023, 9:00:12 AM Quote this Post