The promise of a shared endgame fooled collectors and standard players
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This guy is just so frustrating. Literally just plays to make random builds for a bit and doesn't build any history of achievements and then he acts like it's cool to start over in a new game to people like me that wouldn't have even played this game for nearly as long if I thought I wasn't building a history of achievements that wouldn't get sequel screwed over.
[Removed by Support] Edit: Removed by support? All I said in that sentence is that he already starts over anyway and that he's fine if other people get screwed over as long as his way of playing isn't. Last edited by albert2006xp on Jul 31, 2023, 6:18:12 PM
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" 2019 Chris Wilson has something to say to you: " https://youtu.be/pM_5S55jUzk =9[.]9= =^[.]^= basic (happy/amused) cheetahmoticon: Whiskers/eye/tear-streak/nose/tear-streak/eye/
whiskers =@[.]@= boggled / =>[.]<= annoyed or angry / ='[.]'= concerned / =0[.]o= confuzzled / =-[.]-= sad or sleepy / =*[.]*= dazzled / =^[.]~= wink / =~[.]^= naughty wink / =9[.]9= rolleyes #FourYearLie |
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" Really challenges flaunting? Achievements are meaningless I'm sorry. You aren't better than anyone here dude. Dys an sohm Rohs an kyn Sahl djahs afah Mah morn narr Last edited by Coconutdoggy on Jul 31, 2023, 6:54:11 PM
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" I've watched that talk a number of times and have referenced it in a few posts recently, so let me preface the rest of this post with the following background: This GDC talk title is an allusion to Magic: the Gathering (MtG), a collectable card game that at some point their designers decided was meant to be played forever. The problem with that? They are essentially a live-service card game. They have two ways of making money - bring new players in to buy the old cards, or print new card that the current playerbase will buy (sound familiar?). At some point MtG, like PoE someday, will hit a plateau of 'new players' available. Some people will never play a card game, others will never play a video game. So you can advertise. You can improve. But at some point everyone who would ever consider your game has heard of you and has made their decision to either play or not play. At this point you can't get new players without compromising something about your original product. For MtG this has taken on different looks over the years. New modes and IP crossovers come to mind. For PoE we're witnessing their first real foray into game compromise. They're copying from other (non Diablo 2) games, not just for a league, but for a new skeleton of gameplay. Dark Souls with a splash of D4 and Lost Ark. Call it 50% PoE, 40% Dark Souls, 10% the rest from what we've seen. This is how you make your game playable forever. You change the game, but keep it familiar enough to not lose your current audience. Here's the big difference and where we're going to get into real analysis. Chris knows MtG way better than I do. Chris references it way more than I do. So it boggles the mind that they don't do something that MtG has always done - care for and nurture a space where old-school players with old-school limited-edition cards can play with their rare heirloom keepsakes. Chris has the recognition that this is important, but right now I'm not seeing the reconciliation of that recognition. Chris has to know it's important. Where is the outreached hand? Where is the compromise? There has to be something they can do for old school and/or standard players that, ok sure, we're in a video game now so maybe your legacy-this-or-that would break the new game. But at least let them showcase it in a special hideout. At least let these players bring their keepsakes in visual form only, at a minimum. The challenge league totem is a start but only 1% of what I'd push for if I worked on the game. We have a showcase on our forum profiles here. I think they should develop a free hideout that lets people show off their past achievements and items, with a league-themed room dedicated to the theme of each past league. Like our own Hall of Grandmasters. But instead of busted ass PC-NPCs there is whatever the player wants to show off. This can lead right into PoE2. New forms of stat tracking - not just 40/40 challenges and /kills in the chat but a whole suite of things that could be displayed as points of pride and personal achievements. An expanded player housing/hideout system. Come build your story, your legacy in PoE1/2. Beach Debris. Godslayer. Worldsaver. And whatever else they have in store for us. And know that your story and your accomplishments will echo through the eternity of PoE development. There's some alternate timeline where Chris/GGG care about this stuff and I'm a standard player. I get the allure. But they've cold-shouldered standard so many times I've long sense given up any sense of caring what happens there. It doesn't have to be that way. - I'm generally on the side of 'its game development, shit changes, deal with it' - but there are two things they should have done differently here. Tell the players as soon as they were locked in to a standalone sequel. And two, not gone through with the sale of reliquary keys. The former is a bit nebulous and I don't have a super strong opinion over how offended people should be - but the latter product was sold as a way to leave your mark on Wraeclast/PoE. For what, all of a couple years? At the price point they sold it at, to whatever extent they knew where this was headed (standalone sequel) that's bs. |
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" how do you change the game a lot WITHOUT losing your current audience? lets see some examples of games that changed Dungeon siege. 1 and 2 were changed a little. players loved them Dungeon siege 3? fuck no. dead game then we have Sacred 1 and 2, new classes but the fundamentals were practically the same. both loved a lot Sacred 3? Fuck no. franchise killer like dungeon siege. i cant use torchlight as a good example, as the devs totally lost their direction in TL3. TLI is from a different team but it has a lot of mechanics that is touted in POE2 but with the gameplay similar to POE1. then lets looks at other stuff cnc, if i recall command and conquer 4 changed so much that most of the fans dont play it. thankfully they concluded the story in that installment. on the flipside, we have starcraft. starcraft 2 improved on the base game. it didnt deviate too much. it played the same but with new enhancements. i m very thankful that blizzard ended the series then and there. its ok to not innovate too much what poe1 players wanted is "more of the same". pretty sure dungeon siege/sacred enjoyers just wanted more of what they already liked. look at titanquest, its a good game. grimdawn is the spiritual successor. theres a lot of improvements compared to tq, but it doesnt change the gameplay. more of the same. [Removed by Support]
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" Not entirely sure whether you are making the argument for pro or con PoE 2 as a separate game, but you are an Open Beta supporter. This game we have right now is a completely and utterly unrecognizable game from where it was in Open Beta and, frankly, pre-3.0. Yet you are still here. So am I. So no...I don't think massive change really results in a huge loss of current players. You will lose SOME but others like us are here for much more than the "current" way the game plays. I included the CnC quote because....goddamn it F#*%) CnC 4. I played and still own every single CnC game that ever existed (prior to 4) because I love the genre and the gameplay. And then they try to foist CnC 4 on me?! Same with the older CnC Renegade...that really really pissed me off. It's the same reason why many players have so much issue with D4 right now: genre-shifting closer to MMO when it wasn't necessary or wanted at all. |
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" Are you joking? The game we have now is built on top of that early game. We've seen it evolve slowly bit by bit over 10 years. With slow feedback, step by step changes and adapting of the players. Making that kind of change in an instant is way different and I think PoE2 is more different than PoE is vs early PoE. You have to keep the game close to what your players know your game is and just give them more. That's why you have to keep it one game also, to keep everything players have and have done and all the content they're used to and just make more, rework systems, build on top of it but keep it recognizably PoE. If you change it so much, do you even like PoE? You made this game, yet it feels like you want to make something different? Something that has to be made separate, absolutely risking splitting your players and the disaster that could entail? We were told we were getting PoE 4.0 not a competing game. That should have stayed the plan. Merging the old into the new and staying as faithful as you can should have been the plan. |
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" the difference between poe and many other games is that poe is game that is actively developed and improved. i ve been here for a long time, and yes, poe now is not the same as poe of before. but everytime something new was added, i asked myself, do i still like the game. the experience many ppl have here on poe is very unique as our likes/dislikes for the game changed over a long period of time. charan got so pissed off he rage quit. some people stay some people dont. but most of us like poe for how it is now. the way i see it poe pre ascendancy was akin to diablo 1, after that its more d2. the changes felt more of the same. i will agree that something really were different, but it was something that many of us accepted. if you're asking me about poe2. i would have wanted it to be balanced around poe1. it should have been as what ggg announced in exilecon 2019. i would still want it that way. but to answer your question in the most objective way. poe2 in it's current form SHOULD be separate from poe1. it is significantly too different from poe1. despite saying that i, would still prefer if POE 2 was re balanced so it can still fulfill the 2019 announcements. " many people are hyped for poe2 as its a new game. they dont care for poe1. they dont care or know about the exilecon 2019 announcement [Removed by Support] Last edited by exsea on Jul 31, 2023, 11:14:15 PM
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" Wow, that is pretty damning. BTW - if Poe! is to stay zoomy, why are the continuing to balance away from that, or rather, why does the build diversity of that playstyle continue to decline? The next expansion in a few weeks better be the start of some zoom-zoom diversity, or else, it really looks like two games balanced roughly the same but feeling somewhat different due to mechanical changes. If that is true - either I play neither or I only play PoE2. Or, if it feels not much different in broad strokes - D4 and Lost Epoch are right over there when I need my aRPG fix. | |
" Okay...I'll take the bait again even though I know I shouldn't by this point. What the hell do you think PoE 2 is built upon? Thin air? Look at the gameplay, the interface, the skills, the character design, the skill tree, literally everything about it. It is built on the SAME base that current PoE is built upon. The difference is that it resets a ton of powercreep and makes massive QoL improvements alongside a brand new campaign and endgame, and new characters. You seem to be under the impression that PoE 2 is hands-down a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT game when it really isn't. As far as PoE 2 vs. early PoE 1: no...PoE 2 already in the videos is faster and smoother than PoE was in the beginning. If you don't believe that, check out gameplay videos from 2012 and 2013 and compare them to the gameplay videos we have seen in PoE 2. They look eerily similar, albeit MUCH smoother and faster in PoE 2. Sure, the changes to PoE were gradual...sort of. There have been noticeable instances of ENORMOUS sudden bursts of power in PoE, similar to the reverse direction being taken for PoE 2. Delirium League being one such example: the invention of cluster jewels irreversibly changed the power dynamic of PoE. It was neither good nor bad in my opinion, I liked the game before clusters and I liked the game after clusters. But it also had the side effect of coloring every single update that came after them, forever altering the development path. Another example: influenced gear that came with Conquerors of the Atlas. ENORMOUS, somewhat game-breaking power increase that started an out of control spiral. Rather than destroy the current game through MASSIVE nerfs and gameplay changes, GGG opted for a separate game. So that players can have BOTH: the zoom of PoE, along with the fresh new start that is PoE 2. I can 100% guarantee there would be far more outrage if GGG suddenly decided to slam PoE 2 down onto PoE 1 as a new patch. The backlash has happened before: Potion reworks when they first came out were met with incredible vitriol. Whenever GGG decides to nerf a build out of existence, those that play the build foam at the mouth. If they did that to the entire game, they would effectively destroy the game for everyone. They would attract no new players because its still the same "game", and they'd lose a ton of existing players that don't want the change. But with the two-game system: existing players will play both, or they will stick with PoE 1. But PoE 2 will attract new players without turning off any old players. And also: YES!!! The devs want a different game. They have explicitly said so in many many many interviews. They have proven that by TRYING to clamp down on power creep unsuccessfully for years. Basically, the devs backed themselves into a hole. With the additions that I outlined above, there is NO WAY to recover what they lost in PoE wihout it being a separate game. They tried to by releasing Ruthless: but ruthless isn't a fix...its simply an extra grind. PoE 2 as a separate game is a FIX to all the problems they themselves created and dislike about PoE 1. However; they recognize that many current players DO NOT see these as problems and would much rather continue as-is. Hence, PoE 1 running side by side with PoE 2 rather than forcibly smashed together into some amalgam of a game that neither new or old players would actually like. |
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