The Self Found League

"

Perfect_Black wrote:

This has nothing to do with the self-found nature of a Self Found League. Any league could incur modifications regarding crafting and trading.

It actually has everything to do with SFL.

"

I suppose that the assumption is: with trading disabled in a SFL, drop rates would in-fact be modified to favor crafting because of the lack of the ability to trade. However, I don't think that we should make this assumption.

That is one of the assumptions of having a self-found league.

"

The label would address some players concerns about knowing whether or not other players are truly self-found. It would allow players to identify other self-found and non-self-found players.

If there were a self-found league there'd be no need for labels, it's implied.

@Kellog

GGG has not elaborated on any SFL or associated SFL rules that I am aware of. So the only assumption that we can really make is that a SFL, if implemented, would have trading disabled.

An assumption is not a fact, and we know no facts about a SFL, accept that, in theory, one would have trading completely disabled. Drop rate talk is all speculation.

You are right about the labels. The label/tag idea would only apply to existing and future leagues that are not SFLs. If you had thoroughly read my last few posts, you likely would have understood that the label/tag system is an idea that seeks to replace a SFL; an idea that could (maybe) satisfy some of those exiles who want a SFL, without actually having to implement one.

"

Kellog wrote:

This entire thread is pure speculation but one of the assumptions made about SFL, should it ever come to pass, is that it would be adjusted to cater for the lack of trading.

Touché. Maybe not everyone makes this assumption though?

"

Perfect_Black wrote:

@Kellog

GGG has not elaborated on any SFL or associated SFL rules that I am aware of. So the only assumption that we can really make is that a SFL would have trading disabled.

An assumption is not a fact, and we know no facts about a SFL, accept that, in theory, one would have trading completely disabled. Drop rate talk is all speculation.

This entire thread is pure speculation but one of the assumptions made about SFL, should it ever come to pass, is that it would be adjusted to to cater for the lack of trading.

"

emtwo wrote:

I must admit to letting myself get frustrated with that last post. I apologize.

I appreciate that acknowledgement. Thank you for that.

"

I'm not trying to attribute meanings to your words. I'm trying to understand why exactly you have this irrational (in my opinion) fear that implementing a SFL would utterly destroy the game for people playing Standard.

Please go back and re-read my posts. I have offered an explanation for why I think the risk is too great. The core of this suggestion is two fold. First, eliminate trading. Second, increase drop rates to compensate for the inability to trade.

It's the second part that's problematic here. In my opinion, if you don't believe that increased drop rates would mean a huge exodus from trading leagues, I personally think you're either very naive or simply in denial.

I understand that you are not asking for increased drop rates, but the bulk of supporters in this thread are. To put it to you the way it was pointed out to me (paraphrased), "It's not about who wants to play in a self found league, it's about who would want to play there." With increased drops I think the number would be sufficient to truly damage the environment of trading leagues. Feel free to disagree, but I don't think that worry is anywhere even approaching irrational.

"

There is no evidence for this, and the other leagues we've already seen actually show evidence that it does no such thing.

Other leagues that are presently available are far from an accurate gauge because they do not include the increased drop rates this suggestion asks for.

"

You have yet to explain why you think SFL would be negative, you only repeat that you do think that there is at least a small chance of it having a negative impact and that somehow this outweighs the clear benefits.

I just want to understand why you think there's even any risk of damage, and why you think the damage would be so great as to outweigh the benefits

It has never been a matter of me not explaining why I think what I think. You clearly don't agree and appear to be unwilling to accept the explanation I've given. You're perfectly entitled to your own opinion and to accept what you will, but that doesn't negate the fact that I have already done what you are asking here.

"

why you think that any change that comes with a small amount of risk is inherently not worth making (which is all changes).

Can you at least admit here that you're trying to put words in my mouth?

"

It's unfortunate that I managed to upset Thaelyn to the point that he left the discussion entirely, but such things happen on the internet.

Such things do, indeed, happen on the internet. Other things such as work, sleep, and marriage happen outside it as well ;)

Ultimately I came back to this thread yesterday to say that I used to support this suggestion and now I don't. I'm not here to campaign for or against this suggestion at this point. I'm not trying to persuade anyone that my thinking is correct. If you want to push for a short term SFL to see what happens, knock yourself out. I cam here to say I will no longer be helping to make that push.

"

It's the second part that's problematic here. In my opinion, if you don't believe that increased drop rates would mean a huge exodus from trading leagues, I personally think you're either very naive or simply in denial.

I understand that you are not asking for increased drop rates, but the bulk of supporters in this thread are. To put it to you the way it was pointed out to me (paraphrased), "It's not about who wants to play in a self found league, it's about who would want to play there." With increased drops I think the number would be sufficient to truly damage the environment of trading leagues. Feel free to disagree, but I don't think that worry is anywhere even approaching irrational.

I have a couple of comments about this.

First, whist it's true that many of those that have commented in this thread favour increased drop rates, doesn't make it the only solution. In some ways it's probably just a knee-jerk reaction to the current system, which, in my opinion, needs looking at regardless.

Second, If there were an exodus from the existing leagues to SFL, I sincerely doubt, unless the drop rates were increased by a ridiculous amount, it would be long lived.

Unless one has played self-found, it's difficult to comprehend the difficulties the challenge presents. For those used to trading, it's highly likely the novelty would wear off quite quickly, particularly when they find themselves with lots of items, most of which are inappropriate to their build and no where to turn.

"

Kellog wrote:

"

Thaelyn wrote:

Spoiler

It's the second part that's problematic here. In my opinion, if you don't believe that increased drop rates would mean a huge exodus from trading leagues, I personally think you're either very naive or simply in denial.

I understand that you are not asking for increased drop rates, but the bulk of supporters in this thread are. To put it to you the way it was pointed out to me (paraphrased), "It's not about who wants to play in a self found league, it's about who would want to play there." With increased drops I think the number would be sufficient to truly damage the environment of trading leagues. Feel free to disagree, but I don't think that worry is anywhere even approaching irrational.

Spoiler

I have a couple of comments about this.

First, whist it's true that many of those that have commented in this thread favour increased drop rates, doesn't make it the only solution.

In some ways it's probably just a knee-jerk reaction to the current system,

Spoiler

which, in my opinion, needs looking at regardless.

Second, If there were an exodus from the existing leagues to SFL, I sincerely doubt, unless the drop rates were increased by a ridiculous amount, it would be long lived.

Unless one has played self-found, it's difficult to comprehend the difficulties the challenge presents. For those used to trading, it's highly likely the novelty would wear off quite quickly, particularly

*** when they find themselves with lots of items, most of which are inappropriate to their build and no where to turn.***

This.

"

emtwo wrote:

It's the second part that's problematic here. In my opinion, if you don't believe that increased drop rates would mean a huge exodus from trading leagues, I personally think you're either very naive or simply in denial.

If that's true, that's only an indicator of a fundamentally unsatisfying existing league. Self-found will only draw players away from the trade league if it is more fun. If it is more fun: success, right?

Grats on getting Chris to reply, too bad he didn't actually answer your question.

I wouldn't mind to know what difficulties he's on about. Destroy item popup is already there, disabling trade window is probably easy, and they been playing with drop rates (for maps at least) since CB. There are 4 leagues already, thera are races with different attributes going on, so what difficulties he's on about???

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

Muck up how? You don't have to party with them; just fill your friends list with other self-found players (should be easy since they're all in this thread). There's nothing for them to muck up. Drink less Haterade.

The game would get mucked up by Standard players joining because Self-Found would see an inherent shift in the difficulty curve with the absence of trading. Standard players joining my game would be on a completely different difficulty curve and would trivialize the curve that my Self-Found character was on.

Again, I would say that this is like telling HC players to fill their friends up with other HC players.

First off, not everyone who would enjoy or support a SFL is posting on this thread.

Second, even if I were to add every player who supports this idea to my friends list, I have no guarantee that the characters they are currently playing are Self-Found.

Third, even if I had people on my friends list that I believed 100% were Self-Found, there's no guarantee that any of their characters would be at an appropriate level to play with my characters, or that they'd be on at the same times as myself.

There are many, many roadblocks to creating a community like this without having it institutionalized in the game in some manner.

"

Thaelyn wrote:

It's the second part that's problematic here. In my opinion, if you don't believe that increased drop rates would mean a huge exodus from trading leagues, I personally think you're either very naive or simply in denial.

I understand that you are not asking for increased drop rates, but the bulk of supporters in this thread are. To put it to you the way it was pointed out to me (paraphrased), "It's not about who wants to play in a self found league, it's about who would want to play there."

Ah, I think we've finally gotten to the crux of our disagreement here!

You (and presumably Scrotie) have been arguing against Self-Found under the premise that any Self-Found League must include increased drop rates.

I have been arguing for Self-Found under the premise that a Self-Found League does not need to have increased drop rates, and that the two matters are separate issues.

Of course we are having difficulty in understanding each-others positions when we are actually arguing about two different things!

I would state for the record that I would be in favor of a moderately increased drop-rate for crafting orbs only in a Self-Found League, but that this is not a requirement for said League. I believe people would still want to play it without increased rates.

I would also add that I would be in favor of those same crafting orb increases in all leagues in order to make crafting a viable (even if it's still more expensive than trading) option for gear progression throughout the game.

However, in my mind, the drop rates and the Self-Found aspect are completely different and one does not necessitate the other. I think this is why we're having difficulty here.

I've already thanked Scrotie, but I'd like to thank you as well, Thaelyn, for your contribution to this thread. I understand your position has changed and that you do not support this idea, but an idea cannot thrive without intelligent discussion from both sides. Even though you do not currently support a SFL, your contributions may lead to the creation of something that you could support.

"

Thaelyn wrote:

With increased drops I think the number would be sufficient to truly damage the environment of trading leagues. Feel free to disagree, but I don't think that worry is anywhere even approaching irrational.

I'll leave you with this thought:

A mass exodus from trading leagues to Self-Found would significantly change the market dynamics of trading leagues. However, "change" and "damage" are not the same thing and markets are never meant to be static in the first place. Lots of updates to the game have already changed the market dynamics. Regardless of how drastic the changes, people can and will continue to trade whether prices are "high" or "low."

I am instinctively against the idea that we can't make positive changes to gameplay because we are worried about what effect it might have on the market, even if we assume that the effect will be massive. The market will adjust and adapt to survive these changes, and should always be a consideration that is secondary to the value of gameplay.

As an extreme example, the economy of the Southern United States was damaged significantly by the abolition of slavery. I want to make it clear that I am not in any way comparing the plight of Self-Found players with the plight of enslaved peoples, but the extreme example is useful to clearly illustrate the point that sometimes causing harm to the economy can still yield a positive result overall.

Perhaps though, with this specific game, the developers are more worried about the quality of trading for some people than the quality of immersion and challenge for others. This is why I sometimes fear I may have found the wrong game. At least I will always have Counter-Strike!