The Self Found League

"

emtwo wrote:

I'm applying the same logic to both leagues. Both Hardcore and Self-Found could be self-imposed. Hardcore players, for valid reasons, wish to have their own league so that they can play with other Hardcore players and not have Standard players join to muck up the Hardcore atmosphere/community. Self-Found players also wish to have their own league so that they can play with other Self-Found players and not have Standard players join and muck up the Self-Found atmosphere/community.

There is a reason why Hardcore players have their own league instead of being told to "self-impose" hardcore rules, and it's a good reason. A good reason that also applies to Self-Found.

Not really. If there's no trading, what exactly is there for the "normals" to muck up? I can see valid reasons for wanting a Hardcore-only economy: death would act as an item sink, staving off inflation; players with low survivability and high MF couldn't death-zerg their way through MF runs to acquire vast amounts of loot to flood the market.

But self-found is marketless. So this kind of logic does not apply.

I guess that's the motivation for having a separate Hardcore league, even if it's not anything that Perfect_Black touched on. (If he did I didn't see it.)

I feel that a good rule for a permanent league is there should be some condition which eventually transfers you back to Standard. In Anarchy, this is purely time-based; in Hardcore and Onslaught, it is dying. It's not that you can't die in those leagues; you most certainly can, it simply causes a transfer. So let's imagine the Self-Found League having the exact same concept applied to it: if you trade, you get transferred to Standard; if you trade in Hardcore Self-Found, you get transferred to Hardcore. Well guess what? That's not any different from simply playing in Standard with a self-imposed restriction.

For everyone who still supports a Self-Found League, I offer this challenge: give me an opportunity to persuade you that IIQ/IIR stacking is the real problem and not the ability to trade. Make two characters: one can trade as much as you want, but must self-impose zero IIQ and zero IIR; the other cannot trade at all, but has to prioritize IIQ and IIR at every opportunity (pick something like summoner or dual totem). The come back and tell me trading is the problem.

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

"

emtwo wrote:

I'm applying the same logic to both leagues. Both Hardcore and Self-Found could be self-imposed. Hardcore players, for valid reasons, wish to have their own league so that they can play with other Hardcore players and not have Standard players join to muck up the Hardcore atmosphere/community. Self-Found players also wish to have their own league so that they can play with other Self-Found players and not have Standard players join and muck up the Self-Found atmosphere/community.

There is a reason why Hardcore players have their own league instead of being told to "self-impose" hardcore rules, and it's a good reason. A good reason that also applies to Self-Found.

Not really. If there's no trading, what exactly is there for the "normals" to muck up? I can see valid reasons for wanting a Hardcore-only economy: death would act as an item sink, staving off inflation; players with low survivability and high MF couldn't death-zerg their way through MF runs to acquire vast amounts of loot to flood the market.

But self-found is marketless. So this kind of logic does not apply.

I don't think people want Hardcore or play Hardcore for the market. Maybe some do, but I simply cannot believe that most of the players are in HC for the economy, rather than the challenge/immersion factor. This is what Standard players muck up if I were playing Self-Found and they joined my game. They would have specialized gear and builds that would ruin the challenge/immersion of my game.

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

I feel that a good rule for a permanent (self-found*) league is there should be some condition which eventually transfers you back to Standard....

For everyone who still supports a Self-Found League, I offer this challenge: give me an opportunity to persuade you that IIQ/IIR stacking is the real problem and not the ability to trade. Make two characters: one can trade as much as you want, but must self-impose zero IIQ and zero IIR; the other cannot trade at all, but has to prioritize IIQ and IIR at every opportunity (pick something like summoner or dual totem). The come back and tell me trading is the problem.

*interweb high five*

New proposal: A Self Found Guild/Tag, this would be much more efficient than an entire league. If your character makes a transaction, you are expelled from the guild or lose your tag automatically. Players would know who is self-found and who has traded based on some type of guild/name tag. This could be applied to ANY league. The best part: it is a simple binary operation (For example, has_traded = 0 by default, has_traded = 1 upon trade). emtwo, would this make you happy?

Muck up how? You don't have to party with them; just fill your friends list with other self-found players (should be easy since they're all in this thread). There's nothing for them to muck up. Drink less Haterade.

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

For everyone who still supports a Self-Found League, I offer this challenge: give me an opportunity to persuade you that IIQ/IIR stacking is the real problem and not the ability to trade. Make two characters: one can trade as much as you want, but must self-impose zero IIQ and zero IIR; the other cannot trade at all, but has to prioritize IIQ and IIR at every opportunity (pick something like summoner or dual totem). The come back and tell me trading is the problem.

Apologies, I'm not sure what the point is you're making - English is not my first language. I only play self-found and one of my characters (a summoner) can access 320/110 (IIR/IIQ). Whilst I do get more drops, most are useless and are sold to a vendor. As far as currency is concerned, again, I get more but the quantity is still well shy of what I need to take crafting seriously.

On the other hand, if I traded everything I got, it would be far easier to get lots of nice items, but then I'd loose any satisfaction from the progression.

Of course, without the inflated IIR/IIQ trading would be equally difficult, as there'd hardly anything useful to trade.

"

Perfect_Black wrote:

New proposal: A Self Found Guild/Tag, this would be much more efficient than an entire league. If your character makes a transaction, you are expelled from the guild or lose your tag automatically. Players would know who is self-found and who has traded based on some type of guild/name tag. This could be applied to ANY league. The best part: it is a simple binary operation (For example, has_traded = 0 by default, has_traded = 1 upon trade). emtwo, would this make you happy?

I really couldn't care less about how other people play their game, so joining a guild for that purpose alone wouldn't do anything for me or my crafting ambitions.

"

Kellog wrote:

Spoiler

"

Perfect_Black wrote:

New proposal: A Self Found Guild/Tag, this would be much more efficient than an entire league. If your character makes a transaction, you are expelled from the guild or lose your tag automatically. Players would know who is self-found and who has traded based on some type of guild/name tag. This could be applied to ANY league. The best part: it is a simple binary operation (For example, has_traded = 0 by default, has_traded = 1 upon trade). emtwo, would this make you happy?

I really couldn't care less about how other people play their game, so joining a guild for that purpose alone wouldn't do anything for me or my crafting ambitions.

Are you suggesting that a Self Found League would do something for you or your crafting ambitions?

Also, consider that a self-found tag could appear on any new character made. It's possible that one wouldn't have to 'join' any guild. It could literally be a default-state for new characters.

"

Perfect_Black wrote:

Also, consider that a self-found tag could appear on any new character made. It's possible that one wouldn't have to 'join' any guild. It could literally be a default-state for new characters.

Due to shared stashes, self-found would have to be an account tag, not a character tag. This makes it very ill-suited for tagging; almost every account would violate it at some point, even if a particular character remains true.

"

Perfect_Black wrote:

"

Kellog wrote:

Spoiler

"

Perfect_Black wrote:

New proposal: A Self Found Guild/Tag, this would be much more efficient than an entire league. If your character makes a transaction, you are expelled from the guild or lose your tag automatically. Players would know who is self-found and who has traded based on some type of guild/name tag. This could be applied to ANY league. The best part: it is a simple binary operation (For example, has_traded = 0 by default, has_traded = 1 upon trade). emtwo, would this make you happy?

I really couldn't care less about how other people play their game, so joining a guild for that purpose alone wouldn't do anything for me or my crafting ambitions.

Are you suggesting that a Self Found League would do something for you or your crafting ambitions?

If adjustments were made to favour crafting instead of trading.

"

Also, consider that a self-found tag could appear on any new character made. It's possible that one wouldn't have to 'join' any guild. It could literally be a default-state for new characters.

Why would I need a label.

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

"

Perfect_Black wrote:

Spoiler

Also, consider that a self-found tag could appear on any new character made. It's possible that one wouldn't have to 'join' any guild. It could literally be a default-state for new characters.

Due to shared stashes, self-found would have to be an account tag, not a character tag. This makes it very ill-suited for tagging; almost every account would violate it at some point, even if a particular character remains true.

Excellent point Scrotie. I totally overlooked this.


Maybe the self-found tag should be league-global and be able to toggle on/off based on current items. If all of your items within a certain league are self-found (based on some item state or attribute), all characters within said league should have the self-found tag. If just one of your items has changed accounts within a certain league, all characters within that league should lose their self-found tag but can re-gain it by getting rid of all items that have changed accounts. This would necessitate a means for players to identify which items of theirs have changed accounts.

"

Kellog wrote:

"

Perfect_Black wrote:

Spoiler

Are you suggesting that a Self Found League would do something for you or your crafting ambitions?

If adjustments were made to favour crafting instead of trading.

This has nothing to do with the self-found nature of a Self Found League. Any league could incur modifications regarding crafting and trading. I suppose that the assumption is: with trading disabled in a SFL, drop rates would in-fact be modified to favor crafting because of the lack of the ability to trade. However, I don't think that we should make this assumption. Plus, currency rates really aren't that bad currently. You just have to play the game. Maybe ppl are really calling out for a proper in-game trading system that gives access to buying/selling items at all levels of play (I know I am). Post items, post (currency) price, first-come first-serve, auto currency and item transfer upon players confirmations.

"

Kellog wrote:

Why would I need a label.

The label would address some players concerns about knowing whether or not other players are truly self-found. It would allow players to identify other self-found and non-self-found players.