The Self Found League

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Perfect_Black wrote:

@Kellog

What I am understanding from your post is:

-You think the game is currently very trade centric.
-You think players should have a meaningful choice between trade-simulator and playing an arpg.
-To you, a SFL is about not wanting to trade.

My thoughts:

-Is it trade centric if an exile does not engage in trade?
-Players can currently choose between trade-simulator and playing Path of Exile.
-Don't trade.

Personally, I don't trade, as I wish to progress under my own steam. However, had I chosen to trade, progression would have been substantially faster. Unfortunately, the current system favours those who trade, not those who wish to craft for progression.

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-No one is forcing you to engage in any trade-simulator.

No force is being applied, by any party, to join any league and in my opinion it's not about leagues per se, it's more about having different choices for progression. Currently, whilst it's quite possible to progress without recourse to trade, unless one is a 'no-life'er' options are fewer. The main reason a separate league has been suggested, is to to stop anything from that league feeding back into the parent leagues.

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-No one is forcing you to shop on forums.

I don't.

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-No one is forcing you to NOT play the ARPG that is Path of Exile and trade all the time.

I do play and I don't trade, I'd just like crafting to be a more realistic option. If it takes a separate league, without trading and adjustments to facilitate this means to an end, I'm all for it.

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Kellog wrote:

Why are you so opposed to a self-found league?

I have already extensively talked about this within this thread. I am not firmly opposed to a Self Found League. It all depends on the rules. My main opposition might be that any exile can self-impose a self-found journey through Wraeclast within any existing league (right?). Why in the f*ck should there be a separate league that simply enforces this rule?[/quote]

See above.

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It has to be about fairness, right? Everyone has a fair-shot and gets their fair-share jargon? No one gets an unfair advantage over another. And what if, and holy sh*t the Gembling Queen might pluck you spine, you actually WANT TO TRADE at some point? What if a good friend has an item you REALLY want? Wtf, then? Have fun in SFL.

Personally, as previously mentioned, I don't give a damn about what someone else has. My desire for self-found is not about getting the best gear more easily, it's all abut how gear is obtained. As far as wanting to trade is concerned, highly unlikely, as it goes against my philosophy. Since joining in closed beta I haven't traded for anything.

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Thaelyn wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Spoiler

Beautiful post, Thaelyn.

The only minor qualm I have with that entire wall of text is this: Drop rates, at least for solo non-MF stackers, are clearly not fine. I like to believe that, while mass forum QQing is rarely a solid indicator of a solution, it is a solid indicator of a problem. Whenever a thread like this one reaches this kind of post count, you know that there is a mass interest in fixing a common problem all these users are finding with the game... and that they're struggling, often futiley, to come up with answers to that problem, and that their cures may be worse than the disease. But the point here is: the problem is real, there is something resonating here.

Solo drop rates are wrong. And that is something which should be fixed. I feel I've done a decent job explaining why the suggestions in this thread would break more than they'd fix, and I think I've even found a reasonable fix to the solo drops issue in my "halve MF" thread. But I could be wrong; I could be one of those forum QQers myself, identifying a problem but offering crap solutions. What's important for GGG's sake is that they identify an appropriate course of action that eliminates or at least mitigates the effects of this pervasive problem.

We can amicably disagree on tht point, then.

While I do see your point of view, I tend to think of MF stacking in the same way I do respecs. I am, and have lways been, a proponent of having the ability to respec a character in any character building game such as this. In PoE there is, obviously, no easy means to make this happen. There is, however, a path toward that goal in the form of 18 quest rewarded respec points through the path to completing merciless, and there are orbs of regret. While it isn't easy, the path to something I like is there should I choose to take it.

That's kind of the way I view IIQ/IIR. If I want a loot 'splosion full of rares and more frequent uniques, I have a path to get there. That's why I'm fine with item drop rates as they are now.

That said, should MF values be tweaked, my opinion on that aspect of this matter may change.

I actually do not totally disagree with this. And when it comes to the highest-level content, with the hardest gear checks, I don't have much problem with the game essentially manhandling you if you fail to squeeze in some MF; it also manhandles you for failing to squeeze in numerous other things.

The problem for me is the lower-level endgame content, specifically Merciless and low maps. For example, I'm currently running a MF summoner with a few negatives resistances, and although these are weaknesses they are not hard barriers to progression. Now as melee in the same situation, I'd need better survivability gear, and with near-zero IIQ/IIR i'd essentially find myself at a pregression impasse.

Thus I don't feel IIQ/IIR is analogous to the current respec system; I feel it's analogous to the same system minus the respec quests. It's just a little too harsh, and should be changed by slightly reducing the need for MF gear early, even if it is still essentially required for the ultra-late game; it's okay if 77 map policy is to always run in groups and always bring a dedicated culling MF, but expecting those requirements for Docks farming is just whacko.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

~Snip~

it's ok if 77 map policy is to always run in groups and always bring a dedicated culling MF, but expecting those requirements for Docks farming is just whacko.

If, when you say, "map policy" you mean it's the only way maps at this level can be run, then I totally disagree. Whilst, it may well be more effective to run content of this type, with a given configuration, it's shouldn't be mandatory.

I also feel, no disrespect intended, the topic is drifting from the original request, into another discussion about MF.

Although there should definitely be a solo endgame, the very highest-level content should hold absolutely nothing back and be as challenging as possible, forcing players out of every conceivable content zone. One of those content zones is not having to depend on other people. The problem currently is not group vs solo in 77 maps, it's group vs solo in 71s.

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Kellog wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

~Snip~

it's ok if 77 map policy is to always run in groups and always bring a dedicated culling MF, but expecting those requirements for Docks farming is just whacko.

If, when you say, "map policy" you mean it's the only way maps at this level can be run, then I totally disagree. Whilst, it may well be more effective to run content of this type, with a given configuration, it's shouldn't be mandatory.

I also feel, no disrespect intended, the topic is drifting from the original request, into another discussion about MF.

I think it's drifting into MF discussion because MF and self-found are closely related.

People want (as far as I can tell) self-found because they are frustrated with being coerced into the trading aspect of the game. They feel coerced because the drop rate on endgame-adequate items is too low. We presume (since I don't think the devs have stated this) that drop rates are tuned low in the core league in order to encourage the trade aspect of the game.

Thus the key feature most people most want out of a self-found league is vastly improved drops, and in particular in currency/crafting orbs. Crafting orb drop rate is about 1% of what would be needed to usefully craft on your own, at least as far as I've gotten into the game. This is very frustrating for a self-found player.

I suspect that the call for a self-found league would go away if drops were better tuned for self-found play in the standard league, but that would probably drive the trade lovers crazy. And I'll say it: trade lovers have every right to a game also. Which brings us back to leagues, which would allow both factions to play the way they prefer, without one ruining the experience for the other.

Currently GGG has defacto decided in favor of traders over self-found by making the game pretty painful for non-traders. GGG has a decision to make: swing the pendulum in the other direction, or (eventually) lose the players who can't stand the current balance so severely favoring trade.

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emtwo wrote:

Spoiler

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Perfect_Black wrote:

My main opposition might be that any exile can self-impose a self-found journey through Wraeclast within any existing league (right?). Why in the f*ck should there be a separate league that simply enforces this rule?

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Perfect_Black wrote:

My main opposition might be that any exile can self-impose a hardcore journey through Wraeclast within any existing league (right?). Why in the f*ck should there be a separate league that simply enforces this rule?

You could apply this same exact argument to the Hardcore League, yet people love it and it wouldn't be the same game without it.

Spoiler

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Perfect_Black wrote:

Actually, players can not effectively self-impose a Hardcore journey through Wraeclast. Death in Hardcore forces a character into Standard League; a player cannot do this through will-power.

A player can effectively self-impose a Self-Found journey through Wraeclast through simple will-power. No exile is forced into trade. I like what you tried to do there though.

I just want to be able to play Self-Found with other people who also enjoy Self-Found, and be reasonably assured that those people are in fact Self-Found. That's it. This cannot happen without a league.

Spoiler

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Perfect_Black wrote:

So part of your motivation for a SFL stems from a desire for a reasonable guarantee regarding other players' gameplay? I play self-found. I like self-found. I don't really care what other people do. I could care less about a dedicated SFL. I wouldn't mind if a SFL existed. If one does come about, I would like to see a way for SFL characters to be moved to Standard League so that players could engage in trade one day if they wanted to. For example, you can move a character to Standard League by completing all quests and entering Merciless 'Sceptre of God'. This way, self-found characters could trade one day, but only after they beat all current game content. Of course, players could continue in the SFL if they wanted to. These are my thoughts, and f*ck this thread. I hope GGG can sift through all of the bullsh*t and find the gold.

Souleus's above post is very informative, imo. Good stuff.

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Souleus wrote:

I suspect that the call for a self-found league would go away if drops were better tuned for self-found play in the standard league

This.

Update: Actually, the more I play self-found in Standard League, the more I am seeing that currency drop-rates are actually pretty decent, at least for the less extravagant currency items. However, it is quite hard to find relevant weapon/armor upgrades in late-game, which is fine.

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Souleus wrote:

Which brings us back to leagues, which would allow both factions to play the way they prefer, without one ruining the experience for the other.

I think both factions could (and already do) coexist within every existing league.
We don't need a Trade League and a Self Found League.
We already have both within all existing leagues.

I think many exiles simply want the option to self-find or trade, without either system negatively affecting the other. No attempted coercion into trading. The system is likely working exactly how it is intended to work.

Side-note:
Solo-play, in mind at least, actually fits the theme of being an Exile much better.
Exiles don't trust other Exiles. Exiles are alone in Wraeclast, subject to its punishing environments.
Befriending an Exile almost sounds risky. Drop rates should fit this theme (and maybe they already do).

My thoughts.

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Perfect_Black wrote:

-No economy in SFL sounds lame and overly restrictive, if it is permanent.

Then don't play self found if it ever happens. No-one is forcing you to play it and the idea of not having an economy to worry about is one of the best parts of SFL.

duplicate

Hi

Self found league:- no mf rolls except on uniques, increased orb drops(to allow more crafting), parties with no loot timer(what drops for you, drops for you)

Are these the three main points that SFL(Self Found League) should be founded upon?

It is interesting the amount of people that exhibit such bias towards this idea where was this bias when GGG implemented new leagues? OOO Wait SFL won't allow bragging rights...is that the issue? Or that a league could exist without a trading economy?

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This is the best answer for those who say "Then don't trade, no one is forcing you."

+1 SFL

cheers

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Perfect_Black wrote:

Actually, players can not effectively self-impose a Hardcore journey through Wraeclast. Death in Hardcore forces a character into Standard League; a player cannot do this through will-power.

A player can effectively self-impose a Self-Found journey through Wraeclast through simple will-power. No exile is forced into trade. I like what you tried to do there though.

If a player self-imposed Hardcore rules in Standard league, why would they need to be forced into the league that they're already in? Your response is nonsensical. Of course players can self-impose Hardcore rules through simple willpower, but they still have a Hardcore league so that they can play with other Hardcore players.