The Self Found League

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emtwo wrote:

I still don't believe that there would be some sort of game-altering exodus to SFL were it created, but for the sake of argument let's assume that's true. How does this harm players in Standard and HC?

Likely, the people transitioning to SFL would not be the market tycoons. In economic terms, it would primarily be consumers making the move. The producers/farmers would want to remain in trading leagues. This would have the effect of reducing consumer demand, which would drop the prices on gear and actually be a benefit to any consumers that remained. The already-obscenely-wealthy sellers would probably see a slight drop in profitability of certain tiers of items, but nothing that would destroy the economy.

So when you say things like SFL would be "at the expense of people who like having access to that gearing shortcut," I wonder what in the world you're thinking. Maybe you can explain your position better, but theoretically the people using trading as a gearing shortcut will only be helped by reducing consumer demand.

The underlying message I'm able to glean from you and Scrotie seems to be this: "It's perfectly fine for trading to detract from and trivialize the ARPG gameplay value, but completely unacceptable for gameplay to ever inhibit or detract from the trading system."

If that's the case, that we must make every sacrifice necessary to protect the happiness of those who want a trade simulator rather than an ARPG, then I fear I've found the wrong gaming community for me.

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emtwo wrote:

Perfect_Black, it is extremely erroneous to characterize SFL as merely "something that I personally want." This idea, after all, has more positive support than anything else in the Suggestions forum.

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emtwo wrote:

It's also a mischaracterization to say that you would be harmed because you would "have to create a new character." Nobody would be forced to join this league against their will.

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emtwo wrote:

I'm happy to have a constructive discusion with people who disagree, but don't prop up straw-man arguments. Take some time and figure out what your actual misgivings are.

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Vakirauta wrote:

...I do believe that there is a better way to fix this trading problem, but we need something, quick.

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Vakirauta wrote:

I still do not understand how people who has never played solo-self-found or has no will in doing so, is opposed to a league that is out of their interest. If you are a trader and is worried about losing customers, worry no more; solo-self-found players has never been your customers.

I thank Scrotie and Thaelyn for their legit arguments. I do believe that there is a better way to fix this trading problem, but we need something, quick.

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Thaelyn wrote:

I regret that such is the message you've taken from anything I've had to say on this matter.

Ultimately my point is very simple. If it's wrong for GGG and the trading community to tell self found players to fuck off and play another game, it's equally wrong for our efforts to tell them to fuck off and play another game.

Do I know with any certainty that SFL would make such a statement in it's impact on trading league populations? No, I don't. I simply find the risk of it unacceptable, personally.

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emtwo wrote:

The game is currently "telling" players who want to play without trading to fuck off. Right now, as we speak. It's happening. To say that we can't implement any fix because there's a miniscule chance that the fix might upset other people is ridiculous. You're letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.

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emtwo wrote:

A SFL would be the perfect solution for me, with or without drop rate adjustments. I fully understand and appreciate that it wouldn't be a perfect fix for everybody. However, if we can't implement SFL because it wouldn't be perfect for everyone, the only alternative we're left with is doing nothing because no solution will ever be perfect for everyone.

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emtwo wrote:

I just don't see how offering an alternative is telling people who trade to "fuck off." To come to that conclusion requires vast amounts of speculation.

The game is currently "telling" players who want to play without trading to fuck off. Right now, as we speak. It's happening. To say that we can't implement any fix because there's a miniscule chance that the fix might upset other people is ridiculous. You're letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.

A SFL would be the perfect solution for me, with or without drop rate adjustments. I fully understand and appreciate that it wouldn't be a perfect fix for everybody. However, if we can't implement SFL because it wouldn't be perfect for everyone, the only alternative we're left with is doing nothing because no solution will ever be perfect for everyone.

Again, if the risk of upsetting the current trade system, no matter how small that risk, is unacceptable then there will never be any fix. You're letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.

At the very least, I'd think you could find your way to be supportive of a temporary 4-month SFL so we could actually see what if any economic impact it has on other leagues.

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Thaelyn wrote:

If that's what you think my position is, then I'm afraid you've missed my point. I don't know if you've read the entire thread or not, but the risk I am referring to has been explained.

While supporting this suggestion I have often said that SFL would have little to no impact on trading leagues because those of us who play self found are invisible to the economy. It was posited that the migration resulting from the introduction of SFL (with increased drop rates) would not be limited to only those who are currently asking for it. It would include those to whom the increased drop rates are attractive. Let's be honest, increased drop rates are one hell of an effective lure. If we lure the majority of the community to a league with increased drop rates and no trade, then we run the risk of decimating the legitimate play style that trade represents. The fact that the game and it's tuning currently tell self found players to get bent doesn't justify that. I want to find a way to make self found, particularly solo self found, much friendlier without taking the risk of killing off the trading community. If that's "letting perfect be the enemy of good" then I'm guilty as charged and I'm not at all ashamed of it.

There is ample room for both play styles to coexist and thrive within Path of Exile. It doesn't need to be a one or the other proposition. This suggestion right now poses, in my opinion, to great a risk of swinging the pendulum from one extreme to the other. You seem to clearly disagree and that's cool. Just please don't mistake what I'm saying here. It is not my position that changes to promote self found take a back seat to making sure traders are happy. My position is that it's not right to kill one in order to get the other.

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Thaelyn wrote:

There is ample room for both play styles to coexist and thrive within Path of Exile.

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Thaelyn wrote:

It doesn't need to be a one or the other proposition.

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Thaelyn wrote:

This suggestion right now poses, in my opinion, to [sic] great a risk of swinging the pendulum from one extreme to the other. You seem to clearly disagree and that's cool.

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Thaelyn wrote:

Just please don't mistake what I'm saying here. It is not my position that changes to promote self found take a back seat to making sure traders are happy. My position is that it's not right to kill one in order to get the other.