Streamer priority confirmed. PoE is free to play, so play it for free, but Boycott GGG.

If the Streamers had the same RNG as I have, watching would be pretty boring.

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innervation wrote:

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

what this post was in response to directly was the idea that ggg trying to make money, and doing things to make money, is inherently immoral, out of order and a betrayal of us all. its not, at all.

Well in the spirit of this thread I think it's perfectly within order to say that if someone feels like a 'second class player' they may be wise to treat the game in kind. That's reasonable reciprocity.

i havent told anyone they shouldnt stop supporting GGG or that they shouldnt be majorly pissed over this incident in this thread. what I said was addressing specific rants being made by someone, accusations and character attacks that were being made. that person has deleted those entire multiparagraph posts from the thread so you cant read them, take from that what you will about how sound the things being said in them were. my posts are still there, and i stand by every word.

what ive been saying hasnt been moral judgements, i havent said they were right in what they did, that its ok, that there should be no comeback, that anyone is wrong to be outraged. I am outraged, the second i found out i came to the forum and some serious swearing was thrown out on the issue, i was fking pissed man, steamy ears business, it was totally unacceptable.






but lets take a moment here, ive not been expressing my moral take, ive been explaining the cold logic that flys in the face of some pretty serious character attacks being made against the heads of GGG. im gonna now give you my moral take, which i havent been doing up to now.




you know what? a couple of times i have said some totally unacceptable things on these forums too. ive been put on probation for absolutely bullshit before, but a couple of times i really did deserve it because i said some things that were not ok. weve all had moments in our lives when we made a choice to do something in a moment and the choice we made was a terrible one.


the call that was made in that moment to allow a queue skip in order to not waste the money that had been spent on showcasing the game was a terrible one. theres no getting off the hook, theres no taking it back, it cant be excused and brushed aside, theres no forgetting it, it was a terrible decision.

but if were gonna be fair we have to acknowledge that it was a decision made in an extremely stressful moment. a lot of money, money you and me have donated to this game, was on the line. this was an extremely important launch for GGG and it was going up in flames, fully panic mode engaged. in this moment chris, who had put our donation money on the line to try and boost the game, had to make a call and he made a really bad call.







i think by now we know a bit about chris, we think we know him to some extent. we have 1000s of calls, actions, interactions with which we can judge chris as a guy. this is 1 thing to add to that list. everyone can decide for themselves what they think of him, but if were gonna judge him then we owe it to him to judge him by the totality of the last 8 years, not by those couple of minutes making a call in a moment of panic. this is the guy who need the einhar actor to spend 10 minutes doing crowd work at the start of exilecon because he was so nervous he was having a mild panic attack out back and couldnt go on stage...


some people in this thread have a very cynical and even harsh take on him. thats their right, theyre entitled to it.


my personal take is that he is a genuine human being, like any human being he makes mistakes, he has some bad takes (nerf headhunter btw), but I believe that he is a nice guy who has tried to do what he thinks is best in the vast majority of cases. i fully respect him and have a lot of love for him, and i have love for most of you regular guys too, even the ones i disagree with at times like charan.

mistakes were made, ive made them, youve made them, chris made a bad one and hes paying for it right now, the game will pay for it and in that sense as players we will all pay for it. i dont have that kind of pressure on me, neither do you guys, when we fuck up its a bad post that upsets a dev or a fellow player, it doesnt harm the entire game. thats a lot of pressure, a lot of comeback. im not saying forget it or think its ok, im just saying theres a human being here who made a mistake, at its core thats what happened here and if were gonna make judgements then thats what we should be making those judgements on. if your opinion is still nuke from orbit just to be sure then ok man, thats your call.


personally mine as one flawed human being to another is to forgive and move on, lifes too short. if chris was here now id give him a big bear hug and tell him everything will be ok, because thats what the chris i think i know deserves as a human being, and id do the same for charan who i believe is acting here in what he believes is his moral duty as a genuine guy who cares, and it hurts me to disagree with the guy because i feel a kindship and a respect for him.

What GGG did here was not a "mistake." Stop calling it that.

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The_Impeacher wrote:

What GGG did here was not a "mistake." Stop calling it that.

yes it was a mistake, by any judgement of motivations it was a mistake.

financially it was a mistake

morally it was a mistake

in pr terms it was a mistake

theres no metric by which this action was not a mistake. only bad things have come from it, there is no perspective from which this was a win. it can be seen as nothing other than a giant mistake regardless of why you think the decision was made.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

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The_Impeacher wrote:

What GGG did here was not a "mistake." Stop calling it that.

yes it was a mistake, by any judgement of motivations it was a mistake.

financially it was a mistake

morally it was a mistake

in pr terms it was a mistake

theres no metric by which this action was not a mistake. only bad things have come from it, there is no perspective from which this was a win. it can be seen as nothing other than a giant mistake regardless of why you think the decision was made.

I think the only real silver lining from GGG's perspective is that it is unlikely that they'll suffer too badly in the long run from this. Otherwise yes this is a blunder and there is no painting it as not being one (unless you want to be like one or two streamers that made a fool of themselves).

@Snorkle_uk, it may have been a mistake and a bad call in a stressful moment, but the "infrastructure" to make that bad call work - was there. On purpose.

What makes me angry is the fact a way to differentiate between a Streamer and a non-Streamer account, exists.
In the main game.

I guess that applies to Charan and others in this thread as well, but I can't speak for them.

In the "old days" it was clear that even Kripp the god of Streamers himself, who got a huge amount of players (including myself) into the game, received no in-game benefits.
And even Charan the guy who spent so much money we may as well call him a GGG Investor and not Supporter, and Cheetah, and other Alpha members/moderators - got no "discounts" in the main game.

Now, at the very least we know a "discount" system for Streamers does exist. And it makes me wonder what else exists.

GGG need to clear the fog from this shit lake.

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johnKeys wrote:

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Foreverhappychan wrote:

I signed into this just to make this post. I do support the idea of boycotting GGG, but you make an error in your approach. The post is fine, but attempting to rally the forum posters behind your cause is what is your ultimate error. And, it's your ultimate error because you're attempting to get between the addict and the supplier.

Your point of view is shared across much the of media surrounding this game, that is among players who aren't addicted. Even those who still have minimal hooks in them are vowing to never spend again.

But everyone else, they're addicted to the point where they're metaphorically willing to turn tricks in order to keep the flow going. That, in their eyes GGG can do no wrong simply because the supply is still available, regardless of overall quality. It's a sad state of affairs, but with a younger generation with shorter attention spans, growing up in an age of mobile internet, it's roughly inevitable.

And, while I share the same flaw in you in that I do enjoy reading the controversy in the forums where GGG has evidently gone against that which I think is better for the game, I invite you to share my resolve here in that the time has come to separate it completely from our minds. If you need motivation, just let the memory of disappointment and dissatisfaction fester to something akin to hatred, and then just let it go. From the goodness of our thoughts, ideas and intentions so that we don't worry about it, but if someone brings it up to remembrance it's like bringing up an enemy.

In any case, Chris/GGG devs have now surrounded themselves in yes-men, especially in dedicated(addicted) fans. It's a very precarious position because in such a situation, it's often too late to react to negative feedback because they've conditioned themselves to ignore it. And, their very own community is now arming themselves against those who would ever speak negatively about their flaws.

Even still, looks like Charan got put on probation. It seems Tencent has taken a cultural phenomena and has proceeded to silence a dissenter. Unfortunate, but it is what it is.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

yes it was a mistake, by any judgement of motivations it was a mistake.

financially it was a mistake

morally it was a mistake

in pr terms it was a mistake

theres no metric by which this action was not a mistake. only bad things have come from it, there is no perspective from which this was a win. it can be seen as nothing other than a giant mistake regardless of why you think the decision was made.

The fundamental mistake you've made is you haven't learned what this mistake means. Their error here simply means that no matter how much you've given them, you're nothing compared to potential profits.

Take the entire NBA controversy into account here. They were born, raised, became popular by Americans for Americans. Now, they're attempting to state America has detrimental values, but in the same vein they're catering to Chinese audiences which actually hold those values and do so with extreme vigor.

Simply put, they're putting money over the values they once held. Gameplay wise, they're putting addictive skinner box over a fun and enjoyable experience so much so that many of their dev team don't play. I guarantee you if I owned an amusement park that added a new ride every 3 months, you'd see me there very often.

So, to Charan, to johnKeys, to anyone else who agrees with the tone of the OP, GGG has chosen money over principle every time.

To GGG, all I can say is your future is a fait accompli. You wanted the Chinese money and the streamer audience rather than the dedicated, loving, help-you-grow fandom from the West. You got it. You wanted your hardcore all the time RNG fest instead of the plan your moves and make what you want, you got it. You wanted your 3 month release schedule instead of taking time to fix things, you got it. Let's see how it plays out.

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johnKeys wrote:

@Snorkle_uk, it may have been a mistake and a bad call in a stressful moment, but the "infrastructure" to make that bad call work - was there. On purpose.

What makes me angry is the fact a way to differentiate between a Streamer and a non-Streamer account, exists.
In the main game.

I guess that applies to Charan and others in this thread as well, but I can't speak for them.

In the "old days" it was clear that even Kripp the god of Streamers himself, who got a huge amount of players (including myself) into the game, received no in-game benefits.
And even Charan the guy who spent so much money we may as well call him a GGG Investor and not Supporter, and Cheetah, and other Alpha members/moderators - got no "discounts" in the main game.

Now, at the very least we know a "discount" system for Streamers does exist. And it makes me wonder what else exists.

GGG need to clear the fog from this shit lake.

Agree.

As you say, it's impossible to PLAN to make a mistake.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

but if were gonna be fair we have to acknowledge that it was a decision made in an extremely stressful moment. a lot of money, money you and me have donated to this game, was on the line.

In business this is known as a sunk cost.

You don't base future business decisions around sunk costs.

GGG spent the money on streamers to advertise their game and hopefully bring about favorable audience reaction and thus generate more sales of MTX/tabs etc. Their actions did far more harm than having no streamers at all would have done. By allowing the streamers to bypass the wait, they further offended their already frustrated customers. GGG would have been better off contacting the paid streamers and asking if they would be willing to continue for longer.

I recall prebuying Diablo 3, so I could get it and start playing ASAP. The store I picked it up at had an enormous line that wrapped around the building. Everyone was in good spirits, and looking forward to the game. They were letting in the prepaid purchases first. The store had a problem with their pre-purchase system, and the line stopped moving. The store then started letting in the people who hadn't prepaid. Those people had all been into the store and bought all the available copies and left long before the pre-paid line did.

I never pre-paid for a game after that, and I never bought a game from that store again.

I don't know what GGG's business acumen is. I hope they know that market saturation and market penetration are real hurdles and that achieving and maintaining them against competition takes some real effort and not just doing the same thing repeatedly. Most companies would give an arm and a leg to have a loyal customer base. GGG seems to have forgotten that, or never learned it. Not just in this incident, but over the way the game has been handled from the players' perspective.

I don't view the streamer queue fiasco as anything vastly different for GGG. They have been focusing on the top end of the game for far too long. One good comparable game released by a competitor and GGG will be wondering what the heck happened to all their players.

I don't think GGG is evil. I do think this streamer thing is a pattern of contempt for the little players and has been evident for years now. GGG has good people and I'm sure they put in their best effort to make PoE better with every patch. Their overall focus has been off for awhile, and this is a very good time to take a deep breath, look at what they are doing and focus on ***ALL*** the players.

Snorkle please remember this isn't about a few outside-the-community PoE streamers getting ushered to the front of the line at the premiere.

This was them, AND a portion of the regular 'in-community' streamers like ZiggyD and Empy AND their friends and significant others.

Honestly I'd be rolling my eyes too at all this if non-PoE people like Shroud, Ninja, and Doublelift were the only ones to get this treatment. As ignorant (and I mean this in the textbook way, not as an insult) guests to the game, they wouldn't know what to do with an economic advantage if you gave them a week to prepare.

To give this to Empy and friends in a competitive race environment. Very different.

This also wasn't one cut to the front of the line yielding 5 or 10 minutes advantage. Everyone was getting kicked out every 10 minutes. If they gain 5 minutes on the competition per d/c that's hours of advantage, not 1 little harmless cut in line.

Very different than what this situation is being reduced to by a lot of posts/posters.

Continuing to stress that GGG employees are people with families doesn't exempt them from criticism or consequences. Even if we like those people. In fact its MORE important to have boundaries and consequences with people you feel close to. Absent those things you're in for a very unhealthy relationship.