The Plague that is GGG's "Trade" system. & the Predatory dance feeding its lowkey P2W mechanism.

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Okult wrote:

Omg this post makes me cringe so hard, stop whining ffs trade is ok, it's not great but it's fine.
GGG has responded many times to players complaining about that and even made a manifesto on the subject, they want items to have weight, and honestly the game has changed so much and gotten so many QoL improvements these last years, good on them to stay true to their roots.

Wow, another smart argument that starts with "bro stop being mad ok stop whining its all good bro".

"stay true to their roots" lmao??? Those "roots" are not even theirs. It's Diablo's and TQ's roots which they just copy pasted over to their game to grab the demographic that sought that aesthetic.

Such a hollow statement "stay true to their roots". Which just means "Don't change" just with a little more edginess. It's a fricking vague statement that is open to interpretation, and thus, almost means nothing at the same time.

"They want items to have weight" LMAO!!!!!!! Yeah SURREEE!!! This is the only sensible way to give items "weight" this only makes sense in people's imagination where it received no pushback. Ever. And DEFINITELY NOT A SYSTEM KEPT THIS WAY TO MILK THE FRICK OUT OF PEOPLE'S WALLETS BY TWEAKING THE FRICK OUT OF EVERYTHING CONNECTED TO TRADE, FROM THE TRADE SITE, TO THE STASHES, TO THE TRADE INTERACTION, AND EVERY OTHER FACET, ALL TO GET A FEW MORE DROPS OF THAT TASTY DOLLA, WHILE COSTING PLAYERS TIME OUT OF THEIR LIVES, TIME SPEND TAB SURFING, ALT TABBING, LOADSCREEN SURFING, AND WHISPER SPAMMING.

Waow. Meks sens.

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Phrazz wrote:

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mccready wrote:

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Phrazz wrote:

Good thing you're wrong here. They DO want you to trade. But trade is the most powerful thing there is. Why should it be effortless? Why shouldn't it require something from you? Why should the GAME trade for you?

Because it requires an activity that is 99% outside of the game loop.

It's like saying "If you want to get item x, fold 100 envelopes first". It just makes no sense whatsoever. If you want trading to be hard, hide the entrance to the auction house behind a tough boss.

The way it's written right now, the way you read it of their paper, actively encourages every prohibitive and negative trading interaction, such as price fixing and posting offers without the intend of trade fulfillment.

What? To get an item through trade - you have to trade for it. How on earth does that equal something completely different? In an automated system, the GAME handles the transaction between both currency and items. Why should the game handle that?

As we all should know by now, limitations to trade are there give value to your play time. You should play to PROGRESS, not play to HIT THE AH. With limitations to trade, we have a nice balance there. If you have other ways of limiting trade without pissing off more people than the current system, I think GGG will hear you out.

For someone who touts "wanting players to hit the Progression, rather than hitting the AH", you sure don't seem to give a single tiniest shit about "Players currently having to spend a large chunk of their time Tab surfing, and then alt-tabbing constantly in and out of the game to copy, then paste the message ingame. and THEN loading into the seller's Hideout, and then Loading back to their original point, WHEN ONE OF THE SELLERS RESPONDS, after multiple copy-paste dances".


It's like you're just arguing against something in your imagination, instead of the actual criticisms. Because those are real, and don't just "lose when you want them to".

This whole boogeyman of "We need some system to LIMIT THE NUMBER OF TRADES PEOPLE CAN MAKE" Is utter bullshit LMAO!!! It's just something the "defenders" have exaggerated the 'threat' of in their minds, to make up another reason that makes sense in their mind to fight against.



NOBODY WILL BUY THINGS THEY ALREADY WOULDN'T BUY!! AND NOBODY WILL STOP BUYING THE THINGS THEY WANTED TO BUY!! THE NEW AH, LIKE ONLINE STORES IRL, Just provide more options, and SLIGHTLY BETTER(competitive) RATES. And people DO buy more, BUT NOT TO THE POINT OF CRASHING THE ECONOMY. Just a LITTLE more than they otherwise would have.

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allionus wrote:

This whole boogeyman of "We need some system to LIMIT THE NUMBER OF TRADES PEOPLE CAN MAKE" Is utter bullshit LMAO!!! It's just something the "defenders" have exaggerated the 'threat' of in their minds, to make up another reason that makes sense in their mind to fight against.

"LMAO"? Check.
"Caps"? Check.
Generalizing people disagreeing with you? Check.

Not really worth an answer, but I'll bite.

Ok. Tell me, without using 10-year old effects like "LMAO" and caps, why do you think there's NO game in this genre that has ever implemented an AH with success?

1) Every developer in this genre is incompetent?
2) They are lazy?
3) Unable to?
4) They are all wrong?
5) They are stupid?

... Or do you maybe think they see some reasons to not implement it? But no, only "exaggerating defenders" see no reason, right?

Reposting this (with modifications) here from another response I made, for people other than the one who it was initially written for, to be able to read this as its own separate piece of information ->>


This whole BOOGEYMAN of "We need some system to LIMIT THE NUMBER OF TRADES PEOPLE CAN MAKE" Is utter bullshit LMAO!!!
It's just something the "defenders" have exaggerated the 'threat' of in their minds, to make up another reason that makes sense in their mind to fight against, and becomes something that validates their irrational fears.

Listen

NOBODY WILL BUY THINGS THEY ALREADY WOULDN'T BUY!! AND NOBODY WILL STOP BUYING THE THINGS THEY WANTED TO BUY!! THE NEW AH, LIKE ONLINE STORES IRL, Just provides more options, and SLIGHTLY BETTER(competitive) RATES. And people DO buy more, BUT NOT TO THE POINT OF CRASHING THE ECONOMY. Just a LITTLE more than they otherwise would have (and this only happens to a certain number of people, some people never buy more than they normally would, because human behavior and choice).
And the same people exist RIGHT NOW, and they already do the same thing. A.K.A Buy a bunch of shiznit which they probably have no use for in the moment they bought it, or never buy more than exactly what they need.

The current system has no "sufficient limiters" anyway. Since it's the only system, people who need to buy something, will still go through the sewage to get their items. They're not gonna buy less items than they need, DUH. Because then they are not going to get the desired result/craft/outcome/item/etc. It's just got more hoops to go through, and more annoyance. It CAN'T EVEN LIMIT THE SNIPERS, SCALPERS, FLIPPERS, FLEXERS, The actual vermin!! And here people are busy whining about "GGG needs to make limiters so items have 'weight'. Riiiiiiiiiiight lol!!

*Breaking news*
People are different, and their behaviors, inconsistent.

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Phrazz wrote:

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allionus wrote:

This whole boogeyman of "We need some system to LIMIT THE NUMBER OF TRADES PEOPLE CAN MAKE" Is utter bullshit LMAO!!! It's just something the "defenders" have exaggerated the 'threat' of in their minds, to make up another reason that makes sense in their mind to fight against.

"LMAO"? Check.
"Caps"? Check.
Generalizing people disagreeing with you? Check.

Not really worth an answer, but I'll bite.

Ok. Tell me, without using 10-year old effects like "LMAO" and caps, why do you think there's NO game in this genre that has ever implemented an AH with success?

1) Every developer in this genre is incompetent?
2) They are lazy?
3) Unable to?
4) They are all wrong?
5) They are stupid?

... Or do you maybe think they see some reasons to not implement it? But no, only "exaggerating defenders" see no reason, right?

HAHA FRICKKK!!! I totally forgot to add a subtext mentioning something like "dude if you go for my lmaos and my CAPS, THEN YOU ARE DESPERATELY DIGGING OUTSIDE THE SPHERE OF THE ARGUMENT JUST TO FEEL LIKE YOU'RE MAKING A CASE"....

Sorry, I totally forgot lol but here it is now. Anyways, back to the argument ->


Dude, there's just a few games "IN THIS GENRE". You mythicise the whole genre, as if it's "so unique that no other genre can be compared with it", just to reduce the counterexamples that can be mentioned. When in truth, it's just a fricking game with items and item trades. A Game with commodity Drops, and commodity drop rates, and trading. And people who dance around those things to create an ingame economy.


Well, and I would reply to your "points" one by one. But sadly they are all predicated on your pseudo-premise of "This genre". And yeah, sadly most devs in this genres were "lazy" or insufficiently interested in improving the states of their ingame trading. Blizzard is the prime pimplord example.


Also, I think my "rementioning" of that quote of mine, with some modification which i posted just before this response has some points you can take a look at. Those explain why the whole "item trade need to be limited" is just a hollow boogeyman.

For a guy claiming to have been scrutinizing GGG's trade philosophy since the very beginning, you don't seem well informed at all...

Chris Wilson has stated it several times in the past, and it's been comprehensively explained in the trade manifesto (https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2025870) more than 2 years ago...

In a nutshell : easier trade = players leaving game earlier = less MTX sold.

That's all there is to it. It's not some kind of hidden agenda, GGG is pretty upfront and honest about it, and I for one, see no problem with this, since it allows thousands of people to play a game better than most AAA titles... for free.

OP reminds me of what was called the "bronze mentality" back when I was active on league of legends.

Instead of introspection and improving one's self, OP places the blame elsewhere, in this case the economy.

I managed to hit 36 selling a total of 3 items at 5c each. The rest of my currency was found just playing the game. I found 17 exalts total, and just spent 3 of them, the rest of my gear and a few key maps for varying amounts of chaos.

You can blame the system all you want, but in the end its just an excuse to avoid accepting the faults within yourself.

I had no intention of even playing metamorphosis and didn't even touch it till the last 4 weeks or so. Hell I didn't even like the league and the necro I played for the first time was fun at first but I'll probably never play one again. But I didn't let that stop me from hitting 36 one more time. And don't forget all the 40/40 and level 100 chars that still manage to thrive despite all your complaints.

Maybe you watch streamers and expect to get their experience, but that's like watching the NBA and thinking you can play at that level. Forget about everyone else and just strive to improve at your own pace and you'll get much farther than just placing the blame on something or someone else.

I've enough experience with AH through MMOs and the result is pretty much the same as with the current system. In the current system you're alt tabing to get an answer and in the other one you're sitting there clicking away in the hopes that whatever you wanted wasn't already bought by someone else. Nothing has changed. You'll be back making another rant about changing to something else.

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allionus wrote:

NOBODY WILL BUY THINGS THEY ALREADY WOULDN'T BUY!! AND NOBODY WILL STOP BUYING THE THINGS THEY WANTED TO BUY!! THE NEW AH, LIKE ONLINE STORES IRL, Just provides more options, and SLIGHTLY BETTER(competitive) RATES. And people DO buy more, BUT NOT TO THE POINT OF CRASHING THE ECONOMY. Just a LITTLE more than they otherwise would have (and this only happens to a certain number of people, some people never buy more than they normally would, because human behavior and choice).
And the same people exist RIGHT NOW, and they already do the same thing. A.K.A Buy a bunch of shiznit which they probably have no use for in the moment they bought it, or never buy more than exactly what they need.

Right, so what do you think happens when supply increases and demand doesnt? (heres a clue, i put my item at 10c, you come along at put yours at 9, then 8,7,6....)
If there is any increase in demand its because the item is now dirt cheap.
the economy doesnt crash because people buy more, it crashes because supply will vastly outgrow demand

we are not talking just a little extra. i sold maybe 6-7 items last league, things that were easy to pricecheck and valuable. with an AH id list my entire, full quad stash and 4 normal ones that i couldnt be bothered to deal with. you might say that thats just me, and ill say in a game this size, there is probably alot of players like me, even if youre not. (and no, im pretty sure there is no addon out there that will evaluate my items and then list them at the right price individually a whole tab at a time)

when you claim people exaggerate or the economy wont be very effected and people are fearful. you dont actually provide any sort of information to back up your reasoning. youre simply saying you dont believe it. but the theory of how it will ruin the economy without added trade/item limits or very reduced drop rates is simple supply and demand and again, there is a practical example that you cant ignore (and that game got wrecked by the AH)