The Plague that is GGG's "Trade" system. & the Predatory dance feeding its lowkey P2W mechanism.

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Mortyx wrote:

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Nidal wrote:

Those items already are worthless, whats going to be effected are the kind of items that currently range from a few chaos to a few exalt. those are items the average player will find in a league but either cant be bothered the hassle to sell or simply dont know the value of and leave in the stash (again, loot filter pinged the item but youll check the value later-never-) crafting bases and so on

the lowest end it already at rock bottom and the high end is already either used or traded and if it was one of a kind before its one of a kind with an AH too.

and while we both speculate, again there is a practical example that went exactly like this. cannot disregard that out of convenience

So you agree at least that an AH would bring more balance towards high end and low end player since as you said yourself some players have really good items that "cant be bothered the hassle to sell" or "dont know the value of and leave in the stash", supposing that players would be able to sell those items for 100c now, and an AH cut it`s price for 90% (for some reason) they would sell it for 10c, which is 10c more than what they get now (0 chaos) because they "don`t bother to interact with the current trade system".

One thing that is really important in these discussions is that we can`t really consider people that don`t trade (because they don`t want to), we must always assume that if trade exists it`s being used. GGG consider that when creating their new contents that you can`t really access without trading (chayula breachs, 5 ways, Uber atziri, Shaper, Elder and Uber elder now, etc), all those items drop rates were designed with people trading for them (they don`t consider at any time, when generating drop rates, how shit it`s to trade for them, they just consider that you will definitely trade for them).

You could instead consider that the items they were going to sell for 100c now only gets them 10c too (and demand saturates, nothing says it would actually stop at 10c or keep selling) and anything under that even less or nothing. while currency still gets moved into the economy at the same rate keeping the very rare gear expensive. normal players just make less from items widening the gap. and when nothing that drops is valuable anymore, game gets less fun.

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Phrazz wrote:

Wrong!

We must assume (or know, because GGG have said so several times) that there must be room for everyone within the same ecosystem. Players only trading, players not trading and everything in between. Hell, they've even said that they don't want the "gap" between trading players and non-trading players to be "too big".

Yes they said that and created SSF, an ecosystem where those players that don`t want to trade can live in harmony and be protected from the tyranny of trade.

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Phrazz wrote:

And you can "easily" experience all those fights without trading. You can't FARM them over and over again, but I have never traded for a breach stone or a legion fragment in my life, and I've ran several of them each league since they got implemented.

Oh yeah you can fight chayula, aul, 5 ways maybe one time per league if you play for two months, really an engaging experience for most of the playerbase. But tencent fears fun, fun is an abomination for them no matter what game they touch. Or do you think endgames bosses being gated in this way generates more fun than if they were slightly more accessible?

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Phrazz wrote:

This "trading is required" thing is getting out of hand. It's like people are incapable of playing the damn game, and taking advantage of the tools/opportunities we have outside of trade without trading 24/7.

Oh yes completely agreed, trade is not required, so there is no good reason to not add an AH right? Why make something that is completely optional and only a side content into a bother. People that want to trade will trade happily and everyone else can ignore it, since it`s not really required.

Hint: people complain about trade because they want to actually play the game, kill some monsters, do some crafting, kill some bosses instead of playing the whisper/ignore game.

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Phrazz wrote:

A trading system does so much more than just "letting you sell and buy items". It's directly linked to every progression/difficulty element in the game, and WILL affect it. PLAYING the game HAS to feel rewarding (within reasons) WITHOUT having to trade a lot. As of now, the game DOES feel rewarding (within reason) without trading MUCH. That balance need to be kept.

Wait, did you just not implied that trade is not really necessary, so how can it impact so much and be irrelevant at the same time.

Well for people that like engaging content (endgame bosses) and crafting current content access and trade is completely shit and doesn`t feel rewarding at all. (by rewarding i mean fun)

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Mortyx wrote:

Wait, did you just not implied that trade is not really necessary, so how can it impact so much and be irrelevant at the same time.

You keep twisting my words to fit your narrative throughout your whole post. Good job. "Several" becomes "one", trade becomes "tyranny" and so on. And even "better", you keep focusing on THAT I don't want easier more efficient trade, instead of WHY I don't want it - and don't address a single point I make as to why. That is incredibly well done.

I am not against trade. I trade. Don't act like I'm opposed to the idea of trade. Your whole post reeks of it, as you seem to have no cell in your body capable of seeing anything between black and white.

The easier/more efficient trade gets, the more required it gets. Both directly and indirectly. Because everything in this game is balanced around trade and how easy it is to acquire gear. You will probably never understand this, because trade is either "tyranny" or "access to everything all the time" for you. You can't see how trade affects the whole GAME, and not just trade.

Lastly; I AM NOT against trade improvements. As long as they keep the requirement of having to be online to trade, and that YOU yourself make the trade, they can do whatever they want with it.

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Phrazz wrote:

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Mortyx wrote:

Wait, did you just not implied that trade is not really necessary, so how can it impact so much and be irrelevant at the same time.

You keep twisting my words to fit your narrative throughout your whole post. Good job. "Several" becomes "one", trade becomes "tyranny" and so on. And even "better", you keep focusing on THAT I don't want easier more efficient trade, instead of WHY I don't want it - and don't address a single point I make as to why. That is incredibly well done.

I am not against trade. I trade. Don't act like I'm opposed to the idea of trade. Your whole post reeks of it, as you seem to have no cell in your body capable of seeing anything between black and white.

The easier/more efficient trade gets, the more required it gets. Both directly and indirectly. Because everything in this game is balanced around trade and how easy it is to acquire gear. You will probably never understand this, because trade is either "tyranny" or "access to everything all the time" for you. You can't see how trade affects the whole GAME, and not just trade.

Lastly; I AM NOT against trade improvements. As long as they keep the requirement of having to be online to trade, and that YOU yourself make the trade, they can do whatever they want with it.

Well you probably already read plenty of my posts, so you should already know that what i want is they either balancing towards trade OR balancing towards SSF, it`s this mid term that we are now what makes everything so bad.

The: "We want trade to give value to items" and "If you want to do x just trade for it" together with "We don`t want players to trade".

That`s the philosophy that reigns now and the one i will probably never accept or understand why players defend it. The whole players must suffer for no reason (plenty of ways to restrict trade outside of frustration exist and have already been discussed to a certain degree of depth).

As i said a billion times, i don`t care if a system is purposely bad when the benefits outweigh the flaws. But i don`t believe this is the case here, the system is bad for no real reason other than being bad on purpose.

For example synthesis league, what was the reason for not being able to move the pieces after placing them? What that achieved? What were the consequences of changing that?

Another recent example was Metamorph organs, what was the reason for having to pick up them manually? What that achieved? And what were the consequences of removing it?

Think about it.

I sold 3 things this league, each for 5 chaos for a total of 15.

I also have 14ex sitting in that stash, and spent 3ex total. 2 for an astramentis upgraded and annointed, and 1 for a perandus manor since I lost my completion in standard when they first started shuffling the atlas.

Considering I only played the last 30 days or so of league (well less really), that's a lot to find and pretty sure more than any league prior, including legion. And it was mainly possible from me reducing the time I waste micromanaging the stash, particularly when it came to low value items.

If you actually play the game, you accept that you won't always get a response. People go afk or are in the middle of something or whatever. Maybe its posted with the intent to drop price, but typically its one of the other two.

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Mortyx wrote:

Well you probably already read plenty of my posts, so you should already know that what i want is they either balancing towards trade OR balancing towards SSF, it`s this mid term that we are now what makes everything so bad.

The: "We want trade to give value to items" and "If you want to do x just trade for it" together with "We don`t want players to trade".

That`s the philosophy that reigns now and the one i will probably never accept or understand why players defend it. The whole players must suffer for no reason (plenty of ways to restrict trade outside of frustration exist and have already been discussed to a certain degree of depth).

As i said a billion times, i don`t care if a system is purposely bad when the benefits outweigh the flaws. But i don`t believe this is the case here, the system is bad for no real reason other than being bad on purpose.

For example synthesis league, what was the reason for not being able to move the pieces after placing them? What that achieved? What were the consequences of changing that?

Another recent example was Metamorph organs, what was the reason for having to pick up them manually? What that achieved? And what were the consequences of removing it?

Think about it.

They never balanced anything for SSF, nor said they don't want people to trade. And the 2 examples you brought up have absolutely nothing to do with trading.

You also seem to think poe.trade is what GGG envisioned for trading in this game.

Also trade being bad on purpose is ridiculous. What developer would do that? Maybe it's a bit more complicated then you make it out to be.

Ill sum it up for you. POE is worth more then 60$. If u count only 1.0 2.0 amd 3.0 and next 4.0, that mens 60$x4=240$. I think u can buy enough stashes for 240$. Your problem is probly that u dont have credit card but want fair game with 0 money. U wont find that anywhere because its not fair to developers that work hard to make those 4 full expansions with who knows how much leagues. U spent so much hours in game but didnt even pay for premium stash tab. Dude at least pay 60$ for poe 2 and buy few tabs and make your life easyer. Thats like 10 years for 60$. Please dont tell me thats hard to achive in your country since i live in shithole and could save up for few tabs.

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Miská wrote:

Also trade being bad on purpose is ridiculous. What developer would do that? Maybe it's a bit more complicated then you make it out to be.

Well if you look at the console AH and at https://www.pathofexile.com/trade/search you will find something strange, it`s like one thing was removed on purpose on both sides.

Trade is not complicated, it`s just time consuming, boring and with plenty of things to happen that can lead to frustration,

1-You alt-tab out of the game(boring), go to the site, set your parameters, ignore the first 20 price fixers (frustration), whisper one person, alt tab inside the game, crtl v, (repeat this 10+ times)(boring):

a) If someone whispered you back: ignore the other 9(frustration), go to that person hideout, wait that person find the item/leave their map(boring), open a trade window, pay attention if the other guy is really selling what you want to buy(frustration), go back to your hideout and if doing consumables trading repeat 1. as many times as required(boring).

b) If no one whispered you back(frustration): repeat 1.

First i need to keep clear that i find the grand majority of humans are by nature selfish and malicious, and that`s why i believe society developed laws. That`s important to understand why i find the current trade system a complete abomination.

Now let`s see the main flaws of our completely free market trade system:

1- There are too many content that doesn`t allow players to leave to execute a trade;

2- Listing an item in the market doesn`t force you to sell it;

3- The system relies a lot on third party sites/programs that utilize the public API to "work";

4- The system allows many types of scams attempts;

5- Trade is mostly done outside of the game.

So why the things i cited are flaws? They are flaws because we humans are selfish and malicious. 1. would not be so much a problem if people waited for a response before moving on to the next whisper. 2. would not be a problem if humans were not malicious and selfish, why would you list something with a price if you don`t intend to sell it, even if that means someone else will lose their time whispering you for that. 3. would also not be a problem if humans were not malicious, GGG provided us with an awesome tool, unfortunately some people use that tool in negative ways towards the overall community in benefit of themselves.

To make things short, just putting an "AH" inside the game and removing the public API would solve most of those flaws (including the moral ones). Of course it would require to also solve the "AH" flaws, but there are plenty of ideas trowed around in the forum as to how to solve the "AH" flaws.

If someone has a way to solve the listed flaws without adding an "AH" i am all ears.

No you cant fix those flaws, you pick your poison.

the current system hinges on being time consuming and inconvenient to limit our trades. although i disagree with frustrating, my trades are pretty smooth. in retur we can have a free market, and our current droprates, wich are pretty good for a game where items stay in circulation. You might not find you item but you find valuable items every so often that you can trade to get yours

An AH comes with either much lower droprates or item limits, or a ruined economy where nothing but the rarest items have any value

Everybody wants something like an AH to work and if it did, have one. the difference here is realizing there is a trade off and if you are willing to accept it or not

and again, while you are speculating, no other game has ever pulled off what you want to have without trade/item limits for a reason and there is a great practical example of this happening

its like communism, looks good on paper, doesnt work. and people want to keep trying with excuses for why it didnt work last time.

not that we should just try things just one time then give up. but when theory makes sense (and it does) and you have a practical example of your theory working maybe dont do it

if you want to keep free trade this simply comes down to current system and droprates or AH with much lower droprates or a ruined economy

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Mortyx wrote:

what i want is they either balancing towards trade OR balancing towards SSF, it`s this mid term that we are now what makes everything so bad.

Nah, this is what makes PoE good. Your play time is valued. You WANT everything to be centered around trade? I really don't think you know what you're asking for.

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Mortyx wrote:

The: "We want trade to give value to items" and "If you want to do x just trade for it" together with "We don`t want players to trade".

Good thing you're wrong here. They DO want you to trade. But trade is the most powerful thing there is. Why should it be effortless? Why shouldn't it require something from you? Why should the GAME trade for you?

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Mortyx wrote:

As i said a billion times, i don`t care if a system is purposely bad when the benefits outweigh the flaws.

The benefits are outweighing the flaws now. There's a point to playing, and not just trading.