The Plague that is GGG's "Trade" system. & the Predatory dance feeding its lowkey P2W mechanism.

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Phrazz wrote:

D3 launched with an AH. It WAS the center of everything. Playing the game was so devalued, that AH was more or less required for 90% of the players. Players DEMANDED change, because of the AH's position was too strong, Blizzard caved - overreacted - and removed everything. What they shoul've done, is implementing some kind of limitations.

Sounds like you are talking about PoE. The last time i used an item that dropped for me and didn't buy from another player was somewhere around 2013. This game is entirely based around trading and not killing monsters in order to get loot.
PoE is in almost the same position, but with shitty and frustrading trading. Nothing better about it than the AH version of D3. If they go ahead and skip directly to the RoS version of d3 I'd be glad, but I've never heard GGG going that route.

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ivkoto77777 wrote:

Sounds like you are talking about PoE.

I'm sorry you have that impression. I don't.

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Phrazz wrote:

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ivkoto77777 wrote:

Sounds like you are talking about PoE.

I'm sorry you have that impression. I don't.

That explains a lot about your previous posts. LOL!

Folks just need to stop calling it an 'auction house' which would tend to indicate that there is an auction - which is buyers bidding to purchase a given item rather than just grabbing it off the shelf and going to cashier.

What we need is simply a *market*, period. Open a tab, drop in the item, price it, walk away. Either it sells or it does not, but until the holder takes it off the shelf it's always there, available for purchase by anyone at any time at the given price.

Done. Move on.

Will it prevent/stop price fixing? Hardly. It won't even slow it down. But the price crashers will find all of their items purchased and re-listed at a higher price point so they will never be able to keep the price down reliably. Conversely, prices will not be able to skyrocket on any but the rarest, game braking monstrosities (HH, league chase uniques) because enough of them will flood the market over time to keep the hoarders from profiting.

But, for the players, it's entirely a win-win because they can actually purchase a listed item rather than whisper into the void, and they can play the game without being yanked out to make a sale.

To be honest the current system is shit only because of the time it takes to get something, 2 leagues ago i tried doing some obscure fossil crafting(i cant remember what fossils) and for the love of god i gave up after an hour, i literally could not complete more than 2 trades in that whole time frame without trying to go to like 30c per fossil(which was like 6c), you get the point.

PROPOSAL TIME

I would like an automated process of this, is the player online?(very important, not afk) is the item listed at 5c and you have 5c in your inventory(and enough space)? click "buy", get the goddamn item, the guy gets his currency through some means(some kind of mail, stashed in an "extract only" tab, not the problem anyway), you can also click "negotiate" and give him a notification that you want to probably low ball him and if HE also wants to try his luck then the old system comes into place(u click negotiate, he clicks yes, you two get automatically into a new 2-man party, and from here you go to his h/o, have intimate... wait nvm you get it). What if you want to use alternative currency? again, negotiate.

Actually... just thought of a complete fix to the horror that is the item (not currency) market. Would probably take a good bit of coding...

Have the drops actually pertain to the player rather than in opposition to them (wanders always dropping melee weapons, for example).

Set up a loot generating algorithm that examine how the character is equipped, and their active skills. Whenever the system runs a loot drop it takes these measures and weighs toward dropping items that are comparable (often worse, sometimes better).
This would not be great when you want to switch from your dagger to a bow but, in general, would lower the necessity of players to troll the marketplace since the game would be offering upgrades to the current gear set more often.

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BlaqWolf wrote:

Actually... just thought of a complete fix to the horror that is the item (not currency) market. Would probably take a good bit of coding...

Have the drops actually pertain to the player rather than in opposition to them (wanders always dropping melee weapons, for example).

Set up a loot generating algorithm that examine how the character is equipped, and their active skills. Whenever the system runs a loot drop it takes these measures and weighs toward dropping items that are comparable (often worse, sometimes better).
This would not be great when you want to switch from your dagger to a bow but, in general, would lower the necessity of players to troll the marketplace since the game would be offering upgrades to the current gear set more often.

Please, anything but that!

First of all, how would the game know what my current purpose in playing is? I mean, the game wouldn´t know that I am currently trying to farm Sulphite so I can farm fossils so I can craft a Bow for a character that I am currently planning? Or how would the game know that while I am currently using a staff but I actually want a bow because that gives more gem-lvls to my mines or traps? Or how would the game know that I am trying to farm syndicate members to unlock all crafting recipes which wouldn´t be possible because on my spellcaster I can´t get Vagan weapons to drop so I can actually reveal the "Hits can´t be evaded" mod? Or how about Gems or Div cards or Essences or Fragments or this or that or whatnot?!

Second, that would be exploitable like hell. Just activate Clarity and Discipline and farm Elder, boom, Clarity+Disci Watchers Eye. But what about Starforge? Could my spellcaster ever get one? Or would you make an exception for that? And if you make an exception for that why not make an exception for all drops from bosses anyways? And if you exempt bosses you might as well exempt everything, because otherwise you have a convoluted system with one rule here and another rule there which would inevitably lead to frustration, bugs or exploitable loop holes.

So please, anything but that.

"

Phrazz wrote:

Yet another lost soul thinking AH is the way to go, yet no succesful ARPG Hack'n Slash game has ever implemented an AH without serious controversy. Well, fuck history, right? Right. You know better. You know better than Blizzard. GGG. Schaefer #1 and #2, Brevik, Runic, Crate (I could go on).

You're right about one thing; the reason GGG haven't implemented an AH, isn't because it would take to long or that they aren't capable. The reason they haven't done it, is because an AH is a bad idea.

Now, is the current system perfect? FAR from. But still better than an AH.

And you know what you wrote about time zones? Well, that's the whole idea behind an online-only trading system; to limit the market, so everyone doesn't have access to everything all the time. And that's a GOOD thing.

Edit: I do understand that people find premium stash tabs P2W. I don't agree, but I respect the view. But to go as far as calling GGG's business model "predatory", when we all know the real bad examples out there, is just strange to me.

Anytime someone argues for a better trading system there’s always the crowd of people that reference D3. I never played D3 so I had to watch a bunch videos explain what went wrong with D3 and the auction house. I summed up those arguments and I would like you to hear from you why a better trading system will ruin the game. Cause all I’m hearing is auction house = bad period no explanation.

1. Auction house is necessary after a certain level
This is already true in POE (at least for me). There is such a wide variety of modifiers and builds that the chances of finding or crafting a high-end item for your build is abysmally low. Id rather spend my currency buying the item I need than wasting all of it on a craft attempt and get nothing. If you are not that type of player there is already a league for you called self-funded. So an auction house wont inflict on the experience of those players anyway. Why is it for some people more important than everyone enjoys the game on their terms than being a fun experience for everyone. I don’t get that.

2. Real money Auctions
Honestly I’ve never seen anyone here arguing for a better trade system demanding real money transactions to be implemented in the game.

3. Auction house is to convenient
I don’t even understand how this is an argument. How is inconvenience adding anything positive to the game experience? What does standing in my hideout spamming 30 people for a 3 chisel map adding to the game? Current trading is already 80 % where it should be. Just cut the time-consuming nonsense of messaging people, teleporting to their hideout, count currency, check the item stats etc.
Why is all of this necessary? Why can’t we just put an item up for sale in our premium stash tab and people can just buy it from there directly? How would that ruin the game in comparison to what we already have right now?

4. Auction house is a gatekeeper for the highest content
I don’t see POE running into that risk at all. We have lots of videos of people killing uber elder with subpar gear or meme builds. Having close to perfect gear doesn’t make the endgame accessible it trivializes it to the point where you stand there and push one button.

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K0m3k wrote:

"

Phrazz wrote:

Yet another lost soul thinking AH is the way to go, yet no succesful ARPG Hack'n Slash game has ever implemented an AH without serious controversy. Well, fuck history, right? Right. You know better. You know better than Blizzard. GGG. Schaefer #1 and #2, Brevik, Runic, Crate (I could go on).

You're right about one thing; the reason GGG haven't implemented an AH, isn't because it would take to long or that they aren't capable. The reason they haven't done it, is because an AH is a bad idea.

Now, is the current system perfect? FAR from. But still better than an AH.

And you know what you wrote about time zones? Well, that's the whole idea behind an online-only trading system; to limit the market, so everyone doesn't have access to everything all the time. And that's a GOOD thing.

Edit: I do understand that people find premium stash tabs P2W. I don't agree, but I respect the view. But to go as far as calling GGG's business model "predatory", when we all know the real bad examples out there, is just strange to me.

Anytime someone argues for a better trading system there’s always the crowd of people that reference D3. I never played D3 so I had to watch a bunch videos explain what went wrong with D3 and the auction house. I summed up those arguments and I would like you to hear from you why a better trading system will ruin the game. Cause all I’m hearing is auction house = bad period no explanation.

1. Auction house is necessary after a certain level
This is already true in POE (at least for me). There is such a wide variety of modifiers and builds that the chances of finding or crafting a high-end item for your build is abysmally low. Id rather spend my currency buying the item I need than wasting all of it on a craft attempt and get nothing. If you are not that type of player there is already a league for you called self-funded. So an auction house wont inflict on the experience of those players anyway. Why is it for some people more important than everyone enjoys the game on their terms than being a fun experience for everyone. I don’t get that.

2. Real money Auctions
Honestly I’ve never seen anyone here arguing for a better trade system demanding real money transactions to be implemented in the game.

3. Auction house is to convenient
I don’t even understand how this is an argument. How is inconvenience adding anything positive to the game experience? What does standing in my hideout spamming 30 people for a 3 chisel map adding to the game? Current trading is already 80 % where it should be. Just cut the time-consuming nonsense of messaging people, teleporting to their hideout, count currency, check the item stats etc.
Why is all of this necessary? Why can’t we just put an item up for sale in our premium stash tab and people can just buy it from there directly? How would that ruin the game in comparison to what we already have right now?

4. Auction house is a gatekeeper for the highest content
I don’t see POE running into that risk at all. We have lots of videos of people killing uber elder with subpar gear or meme builds. Having close to perfect gear doesn’t make the endgame accessible it trivializes it to the point where you stand there and push one button.

Aslong as you don't understand what convenience does to items in a game economy this argument is pointless.

Chris even explicitly explains this in the trade manifesto. I suggest you read that.

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Miská wrote:

Aslong as you don't understand what convenience does to items in a game economy this argument is pointless.

Chris even explicitly explains this in the trade manifesto. I suggest you read that.

Okay, how about this. If you want to be the apologist for the [Removed by Support] system that the game currently uses we'll just put a random 5-30 minute timer on every merchant for you.
See how quickly you run to the forums screaming about how inconvenient it all is.

And convenience stores have done *nothing* to the Mal Warts of the world. You walk in, grab your items, pay the place, and walk out. Mal Wart is still there for you. And that's all people want - a straightforward transaction system.

Not the [Removed by Support] we have now (my only gripe is the time wasted whispering into the void, or getting buy whispers when I'm in the middle of a map/lab/ect for chump change, that is all. In all other respects I'm fine with its current state). The entire selling/buying side of the game needs to be automated, that is all.

Put item up, purchaser buys it as listed - or doesn't. Seller gets the currency after the sale with no interruptions, buyer gets the item without having to [Removed by Support] away an hour finding someone who's going to respond.