Lab is terrible

"

Kulze wrote:

"

MrsDeath_ wrote:

nope.
lab is fine. get good ppl.

Once again, it's not about 'git gud'. Lab is easy as soon as you have the hang of it.

Nonetheless, it's outdated, breaks pacing of the overall game (much like some league mechanics) and is a clear sign of bad design. It's high time to overhaul it completely.

Has its place, is fun to run - for some - and offers ok-ish rewards for the invested time. Still, lab is boring and not supposed to be in the way of main progression.

New people have major issues with it, some people who are veterans have issues with it, it locks progress behind content which fits more into a jump&run rather then an ARPG.

As side-content without a need to go in: Fine.
As main-content: Not fine.

Lab in PoE at its PERFECT form.
It tests players at its best rate.
If your character is not worthy to wield the power of an emperror you will not have it!
Good story, one of the best power tests in the arpg history!
hence the reason ppl are complaining. People cant just blindly complete it w/o a second thought. Its the perfect eye-hand coordination test. It doesnt test you on a physical level but it also tests your character.
These are my honest thoughts on the lab.
When it comes to my thoughts on players:
whiny , complaining, GIVE IT TO ME type of brats.
so far away from seeing the lab for what it is.
my last advice to these type of players :
if you want to own a power you have to earn it!
gl & hf.

"

Xtorma wrote:

Everything in this game I don't like should be changed immediately.

players should have a choice what content to interact with, especially if there is an open debate concerning the existence of puzzle/traps elements in arpg games genre and the amount of "fun" those elements are adding to the gameplay. of course, its ggg's game and their vision of it, but their decisions directly affect players online count. my opinion is that players online count would be higher if there were no ascendancy points linked to lab completion and, for example, obligatory ten acts of storyline with obligatory skill points and so on.

"

Tainted_Fate wrote:

my opinion is that players online count would be higher if there were no ascendancy points linked to lab completion and, for example, obligatory ten acts of storyline with obligatory skill points and so on.

player count would be much higher if this game was easier.
those numbers would go down so fast so early in the league because game is easier.
making a game simpler isnt always the better choice.
a player who would quit at the smallest hardship like lab wouldnt even reach yellow maps anyway. when you scale your game you cant take the lowest common denominator as your playerbase. if u do you ll have games like diablo in your hands.

Lab already got nerfed; it used to be like uber lab in all difficulties. The normal, cruel and merciless "difficulties" are a stroll in the park since the nerf. It takes what, 1 hour to get 6 points?

And I'm pretty sure the ascendancy trials were changed in some way too; a few leagues back it took a while to get all 6 trials on your own. Now this is a breeze as well.

What about the 10 mandatory acts every league? 20 quality 20 level gems? 10-20 ex worth of items until your character gets to high gear? Not to mention that you'll have done all of the above and won't have fought the shaper.

If you'll complain about the lab surely you have to complain about the other artificial breaks and time sinks as well.

"

Fruz wrote:

Because if people complaining were already 'gud' at it, they would breeze through it in less than 10 mins and would likely not feel the need to come and bitch about it here.

About the nonsense "it does not fit arpg content" ... just no, it fits perfectly an "action role playing game", and on top of that, what other arpgs have or lack is completely irrelevant : it fits PoE, period.

Well, I 'Got Gud', still complaining about it. I like lab, still complaining about it. It's not an inherently bad game mechanic, it can be fun.

And once again, it's not about how easy or hard it is, it's about the part that core game-progression is locked behind a mechanic which is completely different from the rest of the game. That's a hiccup in pacing. Hiccups in pacing are bad for games, makes frustrated and unhappy players. Hence --> Lab right now is bad from a game-design standpoint. Subjectively... it's a matter of personal flavor simply. Objectively not.

"

MrsDeath_ wrote:

Lab in PoE at its PERFECT form.
It tests players at its best rate.
If your character is not worthy to wield the power of an emperror you will not have it!
Good story, one of the best power tests in the arpg history!
hence the reason ppl are complaining. People cant just blindly complete it w/o a second thought. Its the perfect eye-hand coordination test. It doesnt test you on a physical level but it also tests your character.
These are my honest thoughts on the lab.
When it comes to my thoughts on players:
whiny , complaining, GIVE IT TO ME type of brats.
so far away from seeing the lab for what it is.
my last advice to these type of players :
if you want to own a power you have to earn it!
gl & hf.

Sure, nothing against strong stuff locked behind demanding content. Sadly lab is neither providing a low-RNG outcome of good stuff, nor is it engaging for the majority of the player-base.

Also, once again, it's CORE-progression. That part is supposed to be easy, everything demanding has to stack on TOP of that. Wrong layer of complexity to feel good. It's a basic concept.

"

MrsDeath_ wrote:

[
player count would be much higher if this game was easier.
those numbers would go down so fast so early in the league because game is easier.
making a game simpler isnt always the better choice.
a player who would quit at the smallest hardship like lab wouldnt even reach yellow maps anyway. when you scale your game you cant take the lowest common denominator as your playerbase. if u do you ll have games like diablo in your hands.

Umh... that's exactly the case, it's why people are screaming left and right to make engaging and demanding content. That doesn't change the fact that PoE has build up fundamental flaws over the course of the years. Flaws GGG has never addressed properly, instead adjusting stuff around those flaws so they at least work somewhat. Not very well, but they work, solutions to make it work a lot better are plenty though.

Also, take examples of good 'ageless' games which people have in mind. What did they offer at their 'prime' time? It always was an easy but still engaging main-content which had layers build on top of it for all sorts of players. Allowing both casuals and hardcore types to enjoy the game.
World of Warcraft classic is one of the best examples there, you had a long storyline, nothing was in the least hard... though as you proceeded you had joices to engage in far harder content along the line, up to the stage where you were raiding with 40 players and the team had to be well set up to a degree and working together without too many flaws.
Guild Wars 2 is another example, while the item drops are utter garbage, it still is a looter-game as PoE. Despite this obvious shortcoming the game excels in offering a large variety of content for every type of player, the only reason why it was able to survive. Each type of content is free to choose, nothing mandatory.

Those are good game-design examples. PoE is the opposite example of it sadly.

"

Frostride wrote:

Lab already got nerfed; it used to be like uber lab in all difficulties. The normal, cruel and merciless "difficulties" are a stroll in the park since the nerf. It takes what, 1 hour to get 6 points?

And I'm pretty sure the ascendancy trials were changed in some way too; a few leagues back it took a while to get all 6 trials on your own. Now this is a breeze as well.

What about the 10 mandatory acts every league? 20 quality 20 level gems? 10-20 ex worth of items until your character gets to high gear? Not to mention that you'll have done all of the above and won't have fought the shaper.

If you'll complain about the lab surely you have to complain about the other artificial breaks and time sinks as well.

Having the ability to choose with Zana offers easier access to lab. Otherwise it's still the same awful RNG-based mechanic which can get people stuck in their progression for a long... long time with bad luck.

Act's are another issue in itself, not engaging anymore despite obviously good content in it. The balance there is just awfully out of whack.

If you can't run Shaper with 20 ex gear then you're a very very bad player. 5 ex equipment should be enough for any half-way decent near-meta build. Full meta-build needs 1 ex at most to run him comfortably.

Read up on the threads about balancing, I'm more then active in those, so yes, I have a lot to complain about those things, just not here since it's out of place.

"

Kulze wrote:

"

Fruz wrote:

Because if people complaining were already 'gud' at it, they would breeze through it in less than 10 mins and would likely not feel the need to come and bitch about it here.

About the nonsense "it does not fit arpg content" ... just no, it fits perfectly an "action role playing game", and on top of that, what other arpgs have or lack is completely irrelevant : it fits PoE, period.

Well, I 'Got Gud', still complaining about it. I like lab, still complaining about it. It's not an inherently bad game mechanic, it can be fun.

And once again, it's not about how easy or hard it is, it's about the part that core game-progression is locked behind a mechanic which is completely different from the rest of the game. That's a hiccup in pacing. Hiccups in pacing are bad for games, makes frustrated and unhappy players. Hence --> Lab right now is bad from a game-design standpoint. Subjectively... it's a matter of personal flavor simply. Objectively not.

"

MrsDeath_ wrote:

Lab in PoE at its PERFECT form.
It tests players at its best rate.
If your character is not worthy to wield the power of an emperror you will not have it!
Good story, one of the best power tests in the arpg history!
hence the reason ppl are complaining. People cant just blindly complete it w/o a second thought. Its the perfect eye-hand coordination test. It doesnt test you on a physical level but it also tests your character.
These are my honest thoughts on the lab.
When it comes to my thoughts on players:
whiny , complaining, GIVE IT TO ME type of brats.
so far away from seeing the lab for what it is.
my last advice to these type of players :
if you want to own a power you have to earn it!
gl & hf.

Sure, nothing against strong stuff locked behind demanding content. Sadly lab is neither providing a low-RNG outcome of good stuff, nor is it engaging for the majority of the player-base.

Also, once again, it's CORE-progression. That part is supposed to be easy, everything demanding has to stack on TOP of that. Wrong layer of complexity to feel good. It's a basic concept.

"

MrsDeath_ wrote:

[
player count would be much higher if this game was easier.
those numbers would go down so fast so early in the league because game is easier.
making a game simpler isnt always the better choice.
a player who would quit at the smallest hardship like lab wouldnt even reach yellow maps anyway. when you scale your game you cant take the lowest common denominator as your playerbase. if u do you ll have games like diablo in your hands.

Umh... that's exactly the case, it's why people are screaming left and right to make engaging and demanding content. That doesn't change the fact that PoE has build up fundamental flaws over the course of the years. Flaws GGG has never addressed properly, instead adjusting stuff around those flaws so they at least work somewhat. Not very well, but they work, solutions to make it work a lot better are plenty though.

Also, take examples of good 'ageless' games which people have in mind. What did they offer at their 'prime' time? It always was an easy but still engaging main-content which had layers build on top of it for all sorts of players. Allowing both casuals and hardcore types to enjoy the game.
World of Warcraft classic is one of the best examples there, you had a long storyline, nothing was in the least hard... though as you proceeded you had joices to engage in far harder content along the line, up to the stage where you were raiding with 40 players and the team had to be well set up to a degree and working together without too many flaws.
Guild Wars 2 is another example, while the item drops are utter garbage, it still is a looter-game as PoE. Despite this obvious shortcoming the game excels in offering a large variety of content for every type of player, the only reason why it was able to survive. Each type of content is free to choose, nothing mandatory.

Those are good game-design examples. PoE is the opposite example of it sadly.

I have to disagree with u on that last part.
I have played mmoarpg games like wow for 15 years. long story arc not that easy, but smallest knowledge differences made the clearance between good and bad players. i think PoE has one of the widest contents and hardest to learn mechanics in arpg history. and im not talking about it as a bad thing. i love this game because it requires dedication to be good at it. you have to put some thought in it. you have to plan your way to defeat your next challenge. while you need a party to defeat every boss in any other arpg games in poe you can do that on your own. and i think thats the best part about it. you have an option to be a loner. like an exile.

"

MrsDeath_ wrote:

I have to disagree with u on that last part.
I have played mmoarpg games like wow for 15 years. long story arc not that easy, but smallest knowledge differences made the clearance between good and bad players. i think PoE has one of the widest contents and hardest to learn mechanics in arpg history. and im not talking about it as a bad thing. i love this game because it requires dedication to be good at it. you have to put some thought in it. you have to plan your way to defeat your next challenge. while you need a party to defeat every boss in any other arpg games in poe you can do that on your own. and i think thats the best part about it. you have an option to be a loner. like an exile.

It's not about group-play, that part in PoE is screwed anyway, too much reward there. But that's another topic.

Sure, I have to agree fully about the difference of knowledge. It didn't need a 'genius level' player to work out how to build a character. In PoE that's the case though.
Ask around and look how many players know how damage is calculated, which is the base mechanic of the game after all! You click, stuff dies. How? Dunno! How does 'More' damage and 'inc' damage on gems interact? How does the same interact on gear? What about flat damage? Also how exactly works stuff on enemies which makes them take inc damage? That alone makes you already the top 1% in knowledge.
Same going for how defensive works. Beginners often stack Armour and then complain, it's badly explained that it doesn't do anything for non-phys damage at all, with ele-damage the common one in the game though.
As a beginner you don't know that attack based gems - usually - scale primarily off your weapon, while spell-type gems scale primarily from their own level. That makes choosing the type of damage added quite frustrating.

And there we haven't even started to look into the knowledge needed to work with specific mechanics. Syndicate, controlling elder-influence, properly rolling maps, prophecies, how to farm up gear in a timely manner.

It's just too many unexplained layers stacked on top of each other, a proper introduction for players would work wonders there.

As for lab, this stands in the way of the core development of your character. It's introduced during the Acts as a core game-mechanic, not something you'll need to 'train' for in any specific way to clear. Kitava Act 10 is by far easier then lab is, why? Because lab has more dangerous layouts for traps and a harder pattern to follow, Kitava has fewer.

"

Kulze wrote:

"

MrsDeath_ wrote:

I have to disagree with u on that last part.
I have played mmoarpg games like wow for 15 years. long story arc not that easy, but smallest knowledge differences made the clearance between good and bad players. i think PoE has one of the widest contents and hardest to learn mechanics in arpg history. and im not talking about it as a bad thing. i love this game because it requires dedication to be good at it. you have to put some thought in it. you have to plan your way to defeat your next challenge. while you need a party to defeat every boss in any other arpg games in poe you can do that on your own. and i think thats the best part about it. you have an option to be a loner. like an exile.

It's not about group-play, that part in PoE is screwed anyway, too much reward there. But that's another topic.

Sure, I have to agree fully about the difference of knowledge. It didn't need a 'genius level' player to work out how to build a character. In PoE that's the case though.
Ask around and look how many players know how damage is calculated, which is the base mechanic of the game after all! You click, stuff dies. How? Dunno! How does 'More' damage and 'inc' damage on gems interact? How does the same interact on gear? What about flat damage? Also how exactly works stuff on enemies which makes them take inc damage? That alone makes you already the top 1% in knowledge.
Same going for how defensive works. Beginners often stack Armour and then complain, it's badly explained that it doesn't do anything for non-phys damage at all, with ele-damage the common one in the game though.
As a beginner you don't know that attack based gems - usually - scale primarily off your weapon, while spell-type gems scale primarily from their own level. That makes choosing the type of damage added quite frustrating.

And there we haven't even started to look into the knowledge needed to work with specific mechanics. Syndicate, controlling elder-influence, properly rolling maps, prophecies, how to farm up gear in a timely manner.

It's just too many unexplained layers stacked on top of each other, a proper introduction for players would work wonders there.

As for lab, this stands in the way of the core development of your character. It's introduced during the Acts as a core game-mechanic, not something you'll need to 'train' for in any specific way to clear. Kitava Act 10 is by far easier then lab is, why? Because lab has more dangerous layouts for traps and a harder pattern to follow, Kitava has fewer.

But you cant force a player to progress w/o giving them an obstacle to pass. Thats how i learned this game. It took a year but i just read everything i can find about this game. As i said before this game requires dedication and thats whats so special about it.
Players might have forgotten this but there is a joy in discovering new things in a game. I really hate the type of games feed u with information on a spoon with a fork supporting it.
Again this is my opinion but players who can quit a game on a whim shouldnt even start poe. Its not for everyone.

The skilldrasil, the combination of skill gems, the "unique" gear with stats that change how things interact, the special builds that "shouldn't" work, but do anyway because of clever interactions... all drew me to this game.

The longer the game has drawn on, the more focus has been put on movement speed and movement skills, and the use of flasks and "sustain" mostly in the form of leech and use of special super powered flasks.

I like to play plodding melee characters who don't move fast, but have strategic abilities, like the placing of traps or totems to manipulate enemies into moving a certain way, herding them into kill zones while I maneuver safely around them without engaging directly (most of the time.)

I still use mana flasks, and my preferred fun skills generally don't provide me with "sustain" at all. My movement speed is generally only obtained from my boots, and feels sluggish and horrible compared to my archer builds that are much more mobile, and feel like "how the game should be played"...

My preferred "fun" playstyle is dying, and the Labyrinth was one of the biggest steps in that direction.

And that doesn't even touch on all the problems it has with design that I've gone over a dozen times in detailed posts, that have nothing to do with "git gud" arguments. (one of the biggest problems with the Labyrinth being that it ignores 90% of my build stats in an ARPG that's focused around getting really good stats on your gear and skilldrasil... Really? How can people not see this?)

The builds I like work just fine outside the Labyrinth, but are severely punished inside, making it a chore to complete (and yes, I CAN complete it, it's not a whine about it being "too hard" in that way)

So, I'm glad you like it... I don't, and it doesn't fit as a test of all builds to supposedly "test" their worth or skill in this game. It just doesn't. You're not gonna convince me otherwise because it's just not true.

"

Zaludoz wrote:

The skilldrasil, the combination of skill gems, the "unique" gear with stats that change how things interact, the special builds that "shouldn't" work, but do anyway because of clever interactions... all drew me to this game.

The longer the game has drawn on, the more focus has been put on movement speed and movement skills, and the use of flasks and "sustain" mostly in the form of leech and use of special super powered flasks.

I like to play plodding melee characters who don't move fast, but have strategic abilities, like the placing of traps or totems to manipulate enemies into moving a certain way, herding them into kill zones while I maneuver safely around them without engaging directly (most of the time.)

I still use mana flasks, and my preferred fun skills generally don't provide me with "sustain" at all. My movement speed is generally only obtained from my boots, and feels sluggish and horrible compared to my archer builds that are much more mobile, and feel like "how the game should be played"...

My preferred "fun" playstyle is dying, and the Labyrinth was one of the biggest steps in that direction.

And that doesn't even touch on all the problems it has with design that I've gone over a dozen times in detailed posts, that have nothing to do with "git gud" arguments. (one of the biggest problems with the Labyrinth being that it ignores 90% of my build stats in an ARPG that's focused around getting really good stats on your gear and skilldrasil... Really? How can people not see this?)

The builds I like work just fine outside the Labyrinth, but are severely punished inside, making it a chore to complete (and yes, I CAN complete it, it's not a whine about it being "too hard" in that way)

So, I'm glad you like it... I don't, and it doesn't fit as a test of all builds to supposedly "test" their worth or skill in this game. It just doesn't. You're not gonna convince me otherwise because it's just not true.

what stats are u talking about buddy ?
in order to take less dmg from lab u need first of all phy reduction. after that ele reduction if izaro gets buffed. lab does not ignore anything. its the players that ignore these defensive stats.
you just dont know how defensive a character can be in this game ^^