Lab is terrible

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robmafia wrote:

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It actually is, you got 1 life during Lab, which is an element of hardcore to only have a single try.

If there were 6 tries as in maps or even a check-point then we could consider it softcore instead.

...wow.

so if you can't zerg through it, it's "hardcore?"

come on.

When lab was first released, Chris Wilson stated it was "hardcore" element. He said something along the lines of introducing a hardcore like element to softcore players.

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Turtledove wrote:

When lab was first released, Chris Wilson stated it was "hardcore" element. He said something along the lines of introducing a hardcore like element to softcore players.

Thanks for backing me up here, rob seemingly doesn't understand the terminology of 'hardcore' while he tramples over terminology left and right.

Which is also another element not supposed to be in a 'balanced progression' actually when thinking about it. Having a hardcore element in a softcore progression system feels fairly off in itself.

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Kulze wrote:

Which is also another element not supposed to be in a 'balanced progression' actually when thinking about it. Having a hardcore element in a softcore progression system feels fairly off in itself.

Regardless of the 'technical' hardcore/softcore distinction in PoE, GGG has always been advertising PoE as a game created by hardcore players for hardcore players.


They have clearly been shifting their target ( because money, obviously ) little by little, but I don't think that they want to give up on that image so ... if anything, there should be couple of elements considered 'hardcore' ( not the technical PoE term, more like the 'hardcore element' that Chris Wilson did mention when they added the lab to the game ).

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Fruz wrote:

Regardless of the 'technical' hardcore/softcore distinction in PoE, GGG has always been advertising PoE as a game created by hardcore players for hardcore players.


They have clearly been shifting their target ( because money, obviously ) little by little, but I don't think that they want to give up on that image so ... if anything, there should be couple of elements considered 'hardcore' ( not the technical PoE term, more like the 'hardcore element' that Chris Wilson did mention when they added the lab to the game ).

Yes, that can definitely be done. But why does it have to be implemented in a manner to frustrate the most possible amount of people?
Hardcore elements have so many possible places, so many ways to insert them into the game without hindering those players who just want to have a relaxing day after work and clear a few maps before moving on with their day.

I know PoE isn't for 'everyone'.. but the adaptability of the different leagues, the massive amount of content and the different side-mechanics in it offer for very very many people a nice solution to enjoy the game permanently.

So, the big question for me is why the decision to force a totaly out-of-place element to the general feeling of the game into a mandatory (unless you want to be fairly underpowered compared to every other build) progression-line?
The same goes for other mechanics which have all been implemented in a way to literally force them upon the player instead of giving people the actual choice - which the game was so big about a while ago still - to choose IF they want to get into it, with the respective parts available via trading otherwise, or adding that layer of challenge to clear all different types on content in SSF.

Instead we got some mish-mash of half-baked solutions presented.

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Kulze wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

Regardless of the 'technical' hardcore/softcore distinction in PoE, GGG has always been advertising PoE as a game created by hardcore players for hardcore players.


They have clearly been shifting their target ( because money, obviously ) little by little, but I don't think that they want to give up on that image so ... if anything, there should be couple of elements considered 'hardcore' ( not the technical PoE term, more like the 'hardcore element' that Chris Wilson did mention when they added the lab to the game ).

Yes, that can definitely be done. But why does it have to be implemented in a manner to frustrate the most possible amount of people?

Oh I think that those people will complain/be frustrated anyway, for most 'hardcore' elements added ( even if it's not mandatory, you would have people complaining like "this isn't fair ! it isn't like the rest of the game but I want the rewards anyway !".

And honestly, most people are going to take the path of least resistance, and that is the least hardcore path you could have I guess so ...
I'm pretty sure that GGG want player to experience the lab, they want new players to experience it too.

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Kulze wrote:

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MrsDeath_ wrote:

I think doing such change would be throwing the game down the gutter.

Which begs to question: Why?

What would be actively lost by changing this aspect of the game?

i think fruz explained it well enough here:

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Oh I think that those people will complain/be frustrated anyway, for most 'hardcore' elements added ( even if it's not mandatory, you would have people complaining like "this isn't fair ! it isn't like the rest of the game but I want the rewards anyway !".

And honestly, most people are going to take the path of least resistance, and that is the least hardcore path you could have I guess so ...
I'm pretty sure that GGG want player to experience the lab, they want new players to experience it too.

therefore removing this challenge would create an empty space in presentation of game difficulty to new players. they need to experience hardship slowly so they wont be starstruck by how hard game it is(to them) when they reach maps.

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Fruz wrote:

Oh I think that those people will complain/be frustrated anyway, for most 'hardcore' elements added ( even if it's not mandatory, you would have people complaining like "this isn't fair ! it isn't like the rest of the game but I want the rewards anyway !".

Yes, people always complain, though there's a difference for complaining about different things, and the reason why people complain.

With me complaining about lab it is simple: It doesn't fit, it's a hassle in progression, it's mandatory to run while being out of place.

Changing lab will actually hurt me, well... probably next league again. I used to do lab-service last league, people payed me over... and over... and over again upon dying at the trap-sections. Good returns definitely, always a free walk into it and the rewards and enchantment afterwards. Nice.

With the change that would be gone. Why do I recommend it though? Because it's NOT side-content which offers a choice. If you don't have a choice then it's forced upon you. Several new players stop the game because they're frustrated with lab, all the while not offering any experience which would be useful or similar anywhere else in the game to build up upon.

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Fruz wrote:

And honestly, most people are going to take the path of least resistance, and that is the least hardcore path you could have I guess so ...
I'm pretty sure that GGG want player to experience the lab, they want new players to experience it too.

Sure they are, and they expect that way to be balanced. With the size PoE has content-wise it can afford to have a very easy main-path for casual players while all the same offering challenging side-content for people who want challenge... in return for rewards.

That's why shaper is decently hard, also why uber-elder is, or delve, or the breach-lords, or the architects (harder then main content in maps by quite a bit actually, under time-pressure), or literally anything else then maps.
They all offer unique sorts of rewards, as does lab. Just... lab isn't implemented as side-content for some unknown reason. As is neither Betrayal nor Bestiary. Those choices are plainly spoken: awful. Makes no sense design-wise... well... unless you want to drive away potential customers which would otherwise be absolutely happy.

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MrsDeath_ wrote:

therefore removing this challenge would create an empty space in presentation of game difficulty to new players. they need to experience hardship slowly so they wont be starstruck by how hard game it is(to them) when they reach maps.

Fruz's example I can understand, yours though... doesn't make the least sense.

Lab isn't any accurate representation of mapping, not in the least.

It doesn't show you the density of mobs you'll face at maps.
It doesn't require you to max res or get close to it, you'll actually do the contrary to max phys mitigation, something many characters don't even bother with afterwards, luxury stat.
It doesn't show you how game-play is later on, there are no traps and many totems in maps are a choice and not mandatory.
Multi-phasing bosses are introduced during the Acts.

So... what exactly does it prepare for? Btw. mapping is as easy as Act 1-10, just the RNG fucks you hard.

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Kulze wrote:

I used to do lab-service last league, people payed me over... and over... and over again upon dying at the trap-sections.

The problem isn't the traps. People can't pay you to get them through the traps, it's not like you can navigate them through. You're getting paid for boss kills, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with the Izaro fight.

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Shovelcut wrote:

The problem isn't the traps. People can't pay you to get them through the traps, it's not like you can navigate them through. You're getting paid for boss kills, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with the Izaro fight.

Yeah, true. But they pay to get the ascension, not the enchant. So with the solution ascension would be implemented without trap-sections. Hence no lab-service.

I find lab to be a good gear/skill check during the story, I think that it's good to have a content that you cannot just fully Zerg, and you don't have to do this right away, you can wait later levels to do it too.

It's a bit different yeah, but to me it's a good thing.

I guess we can just disagree on that part.


A problem might be that GGG just has been giving way too much power to players, essentially opening the game to very casual gaming ... and that does not go very hand in hand with the lab, does it ?

I would rather have GGG make the game overal harder, with less easy power everywhere but more actual choices in building the character, and then the lab might be a problem for less people proportionally to the player base.
But we know that they will not do this.
I am mentioning this because of your example of people dying again and again on traps.