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Kulze wrote:
Let's talk about the 'common' player, not the top 5% skill-wise once again.
Lab is mandatory for character progression, you'll need all those 8 points to have a well balanced and strong build. Sure, you can play with less, but usually that punishes you heavily.
The issues with lab are the following:
-Lab is either very easy or quite challenging. Many builds have troubles surviving the traps. The mechanic is quite skill-based in this regard, something a new-ish player doesn't have yet, nonetheless he's forced to do it. Bad design.
-Lab takes long for the reward provided. And I'm not speaking about the chests at the end, those are just a bonus, a nice one, nonetheless not the main reason to run lab. You want the enchant, only available there. With the amount of enchants available the RNG and time needed to get the one you need is abysmal.
-Lab has no backtracking, nonetheless the layout - unless you know it in and out like I do - is taking up a lot of time. You're clearing several maps size of content and aren't allowed to screw up during 3 boss-fights and several dangerous sections along the way. Once again, not very nice to force such a mechanic into the main path of progression. We're not talking about min-max here after all.
-Lab is boring. The only challenge presented are Izaro - for some newer players - as well as the traps. The traps feel punishing and sometimes very unfair. Hence it's often frustrating to run.
-Unlocking uber-lab is a big RNG-based mess. Yes, we got all those options. Nonetheless... sometimes you'll simply need over 150 - as it was for me back in Abyss - to unlock all 6. That's just a deadlock for a character, feels bad, nothing you can do about it. Bad design there.
It's outdated by now, needs a major rework. The RNG became too big with ever more implemented skills and the punishment for messing up a single time is quite large.
Compared to the other parts of main-progression the lab is the worst one, not straight-forward, entirely based on RNG and daily layout as well as very hard for beginners while experienced players rush through it in a breeze.
"many builds have problems surviving traps" ... this is a lie. traps do % of your hp/es as dmg,traps are irrelevant if you dont just run blindy threw them.
ppl have problems with tras because they are unable to either move from safespot to safespot or remember the trap layouts.
btw there are only 2-3 layouts for traps for each area.
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Posted byciel289#7228on Apr 7, 2019, 3:52:03 PM
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ciel289 wrote:
"many builds have problems surviving traps" ... this is a lie. traps do % of your hp/es as dmg,traps are irrelevant if you dont just run blindy threw them.
ppl have problems with tras because they are unable to either move from safespot to safespot or remember the trap layouts.
btw there are only 2-3 layouts for traps for each area.
Which, as you should know, is pure physical damage, hence any build with phys reduction works better in lab then others.
Also, Vaal Pact forces you to do those segments quickly, a beginner isn't as knowledgeable to usually change their pantheon according to lab so their life-flasks recovers. Also, this recovery isn't useful in each of those trap segments.
You're right though, there's few trap layouts, and those traps are easily run through by an experienced player. That's the most important part. Step back into the shoes of a casual player or someone only beginning the game, maybe the second or third character in total. Those will struggle massively, hindering their progression as they're forced to do it over.. and over again.
Also, some people are very good in repositioning during a map or boss-fight, but bad in handling fixed movements of those traps, causing that part of the game to be a major frustration.
Not without reason the lab-service is such a good way to earn some extra currency along the way. People go into it, die over and over while paying you for every single try. Even if you're doing your best to help them through hard spots and take care of izary for them.
GGG balance is like getting a pizza which is burnt on the sides, raw in the middle and misses the most of the toppings.
Then upon sending it back you get a raw side, burnt middle and enough toppings to drench everything in grease.
Everything fixed but still broken.
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Posted byKulze#3236on Apr 7, 2019, 4:01:26 PM
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Kulze wrote:
Let's talk about the 'common' player, not the top 5% skill-wise once again.
Lab is mandatory for character progression, you'll need all those 8 points to have a well balanced and strong build. Sure, you can play with less, but usually that punishes you heavily.
The issues with lab are the following:
-Lab is either very easy or quite challenging. Many builds have troubles surviving the traps. The mechanic is quite skill-based in this regard, something a new-ish player doesn't have yet, nonetheless he's forced to do it. Bad design.
-Lab takes long for the reward provided. And I'm not speaking about the chests at the end, those are just a bonus, a nice one, nonetheless not the main reason to run lab. You want the enchant, only available there. With the amount of enchants available the RNG and time needed to get the one you need is abysmal.
-Lab has no backtracking, nonetheless the layout - unless you know it in and out like I do - is taking up a lot of time. You're clearing several maps size of content and aren't allowed to screw up during 3 boss-fights and several dangerous sections along the way. Once again, not very nice to force such a mechanic into the main path of progression. We're not talking about min-max here after all.
-Lab is boring. The only challenge presented are Izaro - for some newer players - as well as the traps. The traps feel punishing and sometimes very unfair. Hence it's often frustrating to run.
-Unlocking uber-lab is a big RNG-based mess. Yes, we got all those options. Nonetheless... sometimes you'll simply need over 150 - as it was for me back in Abyss - to unlock all 6. That's just a deadlock for a character, feels bad, nothing you can do about it. Bad design there.
It's outdated by now, needs a major rework. The RNG became too big with ever more implemented skills and the punishment for messing up a single time is quite large.
Compared to the other parts of main-progression the lab is the worst one, not straight-forward, entirely based on RNG and daily layout as well as very hard for beginners while experienced players rush through it in a breeze.
Excellent post, to emphasis, lab is content that is extra poorly balanced between different build types. With knowledge and practice all builds can do it but that is not the point. The point is that a life regen build is stupid easy, comparatively a VP build it is extra difficult, for example.
With all types of builds though the game play is boring and not fun, case in point the boring fire floor traps.
Best to move the ascendancy points else where but at least fix the bad RNG for getting access to Eternal lab and problem with disconnects losing offering and all progress.
Over 430 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 1040 posters in support (thread # 1702621) Thank you all! GGG will implement a different method for ascension in PoE2. Retired!
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Posted byTurtledove#4014on Apr 7, 2019, 4:02:08 PM
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Kulze wrote:
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ciel289 wrote:
"many builds have problems surviving traps" ... this is a lie. traps do % of your hp/es as dmg,traps are irrelevant if you dont just run blindy threw them.
ppl have problems with tras because they are unable to either move from safespot to safespot or remember the trap layouts.
btw there are only 2-3 layouts for traps for each area.
Which, as you should know, is pure physical damage, hence any build with phys reduction works better in lab then others.
Also, Vaal Pact forces you to do those segments quickly, a beginner isn't as knowledgeable to usually change their pantheon according to lab so their life-flasks recovers. Also, this recovery isn't useful in each of those trap segments.
You're right though, there's few trap layouts, and those traps are easily run through by an experienced player. That's the most important part. Step back into the shoes of a casual player or someone only beginning the game, maybe the second or third character in total. Those will struggle massively, hindering their progression as they're forced to do it over.. and over again.
Also, some people are very good in repositioning during a map or boss-fight, but bad in handling fixed movements of those traps, causing that part of the game to be a major frustration.
Not without reason the lab-service is such a good way to earn some extra currency along the way. People go into it, die over and over while paying you for every single try. Even if you're doing your best to help them through hard spots and take care of izary for them.
i didint say that all builds take the same amount of dmg from traps,i simply pointed out that no build really has a problem with traps unless you creat that problem yourself.
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Posted byciel289#7228on Apr 7, 2019, 4:06:21 PM
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the problem you white knights dont see is that most people dont even have problems with lab but STILL hate it, and here are some of the reasons:
- long
- boring
- crashes happen cause poe has a shit engine. ofc white knights gonna say "upgrade ur computer pleb", but i dont give a shit, its a fact that there are way too many crashes
- whenever you are in lab, you will get whispered for a trade. you can list a single item and that item can be lets say a wurms molt and listed for 30 exalts, but still you WILL get a wisp from someone trying to buy it
tldr: lab is shit, and has always been shit. if you dont think its shit, then your opinion is shit. and if a ggg mod removes this, he is shit as well. edit: or she because there are 2 genders
kind regars
kind regars Last edited by regars#7734 on Apr 7, 2019, 4:08:53 PM
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Posted byregars#7734on Apr 7, 2019, 4:08:03 PM
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regars wrote:
the problem you white knights dont see is that most people dont even have problems with lab but STILL hate it, and here are some of the reasons:
- long
- boring
- crashes happen cause poe has a shit engine. ofc white knights gonna say "upgrade ur computer pleb", but i dont give a shit, its a fact that there are way too many crashes
- whenever you are in lab, you will get whispered for a trade. you can list a single item and that item can be lets say a wurms molt and listed for 30 exalts, but still you WILL get a wisp from someone trying to buy it
tldr: lab is shit, and has always been shit. if you dont think its shit, then your opinion is shit. and if a ggg mod removes this, he is shit as well. edit: or she because there are 2 genders
kind regars
if you dont agree with me. you're shit basically.
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ciel289 wrote:
i didint say that all builds take the same amount of dmg from traps,i simply pointed out that no build really has a problem with traps unless you creat that problem yourself.
Which - still - isn't true. Flying discs for instance have nu such 'safepoints' implemented. Either you finish the section or you're toast. Also if you've got access to a lot of movement speed quite the amount of traps get trivialized, they can't apply their effect for long enough to be an issue, at least if you're not pushing from one into the other without pause.
So, we got high-speed builds which have a largely easier time in this MAIN PROGRESSION system (that's extremely important to say out once again it seems) while someone who ISN'T EXPERIENCED will STRUGGLE GREATLY with them, often in need of several tries to even get to last Izary. A fight which - once again - offers no sort of safe-spot, is purely based on RNG as to which room layout spawns (Darts are deadly for many, can be completely ignored by others) and still doesn't allow a single mistake.
As for badly balanced content, you can see this when a particularly high amount of people struggle with it.
Right now these contents are Lab (sadly) and Syndicate. Both of those are in the main way of progression, unable to avoid it during the play-through of a single character, and a cause of major frustration.
It's not like lab is a type of standard mob like the porcupines, where you have to work out a specific tactic to do it. It's solely based on platforming skills, and that's nothing which has a place in PoE's main progression. It's out of place, fun to do for some, a major annoyance for others, nothing else in the game provides similar mechanics.
So, Lab has a place, not as a part of main progression though. RNG enchants? Surely doable, can just be another layer of crafting. Forcing people through it to basically 'unlock' the option to do high-tier maps for quite many? No... not acceptable.
GGG balance is like getting a pizza which is burnt on the sides, raw in the middle and misses the most of the toppings.
Then upon sending it back you get a raw side, burnt middle and enough toppings to drench everything in grease.
Everything fixed but still broken.
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Posted byKulze#3236on Apr 7, 2019, 4:14:15 PM
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iceandfire2907 wrote:
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regars wrote:
the problem you white knights dont see is that most people dont even have problems with lab but STILL hate it, and here are some of the reasons:
- long
- boring
- crashes happen cause poe has a shit engine. ofc white knights gonna say "upgrade ur computer pleb", but i dont give a shit, its a fact that there are way too many crashes
- whenever you are in lab, you will get whispered for a trade. you can list a single item and that item can be lets say a wurms molt and listed for 30 exalts, but still you WILL get a wisp from someone trying to buy it
tldr: lab is shit, and has always been shit. if you dont think its shit, then your opinion is shit. and if a ggg mod removes this, he is shit as well. edit: or she because there are 2 genders
kind regars
if you dont agree with me. you're shit basically.
awwww noooo ♥
just your opinion!
kind regars
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Posted byregars#7734on Apr 7, 2019, 4:18:08 PM
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if you don't like it then don't play it...you CAN reach level 100 without any ascendancy.
Stop expecting that any game will cater to your laziness, if you want a casual theme park experience look elsewhere.
Seriously it is like going to a theme park and complaining that the rides are too scary and demanding they all be changed to dull slow paced trash rides just so you can say you went on it.
Ancestral Bond. It's a thing that does stuff. -Vipermagi
He who controls the pants controls the galaxy. - Rick & Morty S3E1
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Posted bylagwin1980#2224on Apr 7, 2019, 4:54:22 PM
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regars wrote:
the problem you white knights dont see is that most people dont even have problems with lab but STILL hate it, and here are some of the reasons:
- long
- boring
- crashes happen cause poe has a shit engine. ofc white knights gonna say "upgrade ur computer pleb", but i dont give a shit, its a fact that there are way too many crashes
- whenever you are in lab, you will get whispered for a trade. you can list a single item and that item can be lets say a wurms molt and listed for 30 exalts, but still you WILL get a wisp from someone trying to buy it
tldr: lab is shit, and has always been shit. if you dont think its shit, then your opinion is shit. and if a ggg mod removes this, he is shit as well. edit: or she because there are 2 genders
kind regars
this kid is so funny and adorable :D
i d pay to see ur face when u die in lab ^^
Trust your mind and strengthen your abilities!
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Posted byMrsDeath_#3960on Apr 7, 2019, 4:59:46 PM
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