Time Capsule from PoE Closed Beta -- a classic PoE vs D3 thread circa 2012

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CharanJaydemyr wrote:

MrTastix: Thank you for your extremely worthy contributions. :)

Everyone else: good grief! Ragnar made a mistake, and I think he was more than sufficiently slammed for it. GW1, D, POE, not MMORPG (we do call them MMOs for short, all semantics aside). Okay.

Now, about the RMAH: Yes, Blizzard can and do claim that what they're doing is making what was once illegal, legal -- but how easy is it to cheer for this gallant, noble move when you consider *just how much money they are going to make off it*? There was absolutely no need for them to tag on user fees *per fucking transaction* -- that doesn't make real money trading for intangible goods any safer, it just makes them richer.

This is why I said earlier that for all my gripes, I didn't touch on the RMAH because it's the bloody herd of elephants in the room any time someone wants to praise Diablo 3 to the High Heavens (which, I have been amused to discover, was the original setting of Blizzard North's Diablo 3 -- THAT would have been gold). At the base of it, Blizzard have turned Diablo into WoW not through the aesthetics or even the character system, but through their own view of it: as a cash-cow. Diablo 1 and 2 were of course amazingly successful but not once as I played either did I get the feeling that Blizzard was *still* making money off me post-purchase. Bnet was free, everything in game was free. Barring ISP costs, my Diablo 2 experience for all these years has cost less than 200 bucks. Not bad, man, not bad at all.

So the counter-argument is 'don't use the RMAH if you're worried about post-sale costs.' Fair enough. I certainly did plan to plant my head into the sand on that one. As a single player who rarely co-ops with strangers, I'm pretty familiar with that move. But like I said, this whole RMAH+'fees' really rams down a savvy player's throat just how WoW-like Diablo 3 must look to Blizzard on paper, how they're rubbing their hands in glee at monthly projections for RMAH earnings.

That's much harder to ignore, when you feel betrayed like that.

Totalbiscuit/Cynicalbrit put it a LOT better than I ever could. His rant is nothing short of sublime.

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Tagek wrote:

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Ragnar119 wrote:

How can it be wors that few players that have money and risk to buy items are overpowered if its ilegal, than legal and a lot of players that have money are overpowered? Becose of RMHA that is legal, almost everyone can buy power for money because it's easy to do it, and safe. If its ilegal, people will buy less becouse it's not easy, and not totally safe.

Well I'll explain why this isn't really relevant.
I have once bought a small amount of items in diablo 2 myself. It was from a known, reliable site. It was incredibly easy to do and took about 10 minutes total.
In diablo 2 this was considered illegal, yet a METRIC TON of people did it. This will be the same in POE, and would have been in D3. At least this way people that want to purchase items can do it safely, without any risk, and players can make a profit out of it too, which is a cool mechanic that might make a good drop feel even more rewarding.

And to be honest, why does the purchasing of items even matter in these types of games?
As I said, a ton of players bought items in diablo 2.
Did it matter? No. Because the game, unlike MMOS like WoW, etc, never directly compares you to other players.
I was never bothered by other people having better items than me, why should I?
Ok, there was one exception where I met a guy with full charms (in non-ladder I might add) that was a beast in pvp, but he spent a shitload of money to get those, and someone could do the same thing in POE or D3 if you'd like.

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Tagek wrote:

How can it be wors that few players that have money and risk to buy items are overpowered if its ilegal, than legal and a lot of players that have money are overpowered? Becose of RMHA that is legal, almost everyone can buy power for money because it's easy to do it, and safe. If its ilegal, people will buy less becouse it's not easy, and not totally safe.

Well I'll explain why this isn't really relevant.
I have once bought a small amount of items in diablo 2 myself. It was from a known, reliable site. It was incredibly easy to do and took about 10 minutes total.
In diablo 2 this was considered illegal, yet a METRIC TON of people did it. This will be the same in POE, and would have been in D3. At least this way people that want to purchase items can do it safely, without any risk, and players can make a profit out of it too, which is a cool mechanic that might make a good drop feel even more rewarding.

And to be honest, why does the purchasing of items even matter in these types of games?
As I said, a ton of players bought items in diablo 2.
Did it matter? No. Because the game, unlike MMOS like WoW, etc, never directly compares you to other players.
I was never bothered by other people having better items than me, why should I?
Ok, there was one exception where I met a guy with full charms (in non-ladder I might add) that was a beast in pvp, but he spent a shitload of money to get those, and someone could do the same thing in POE or D3 if you'd like.

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Ragnar119 wrote:

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Tagek wrote:

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Ragnar119 wrote:

How can it be wors that few players that have money and risk to buy items are overpowered if its ilegal, than legal and a lot of players that have money are overpowered? Becose of RMHA that is legal, almost everyone can buy power for money because it's easy to do it, and safe. If its ilegal, people will buy less becouse it's not easy, and not totally safe.

Well I'll explain why this isn't really relevant.
I have once bought a small amount of items in diablo 2 myself. It was from a known, reliable site. It was incredibly easy to do and took about 10 minutes total.
In diablo 2 this was considered illegal, yet a METRIC TON of people did it. This will be the same in POE, and would have been in D3. At least this way people that want to purchase items can do it safely, without any risk, and players can make a profit out of it too, which is a cool mechanic that might make a good drop feel even more rewarding.

And to be honest, why does the purchasing of items even matter in these types of games?
As I said, a ton of players bought items in diablo 2.
Did it matter? No. Because the game, unlike MMOS like WoW, etc, never directly compares you to other players.
I was never bothered by other people having better items than me, why should I?
Ok, there was one exception where I met a guy with full charms (in non-ladder I might add) that was a beast in pvp, but he spent a shitload of money to get those, and someone could do the same thing in POE or D3 if you'd like.

It is relevant because if it's legal, a lot more people will do it. Ton people buyed it, but a lot bigger group didn't because it's illegal, and not that easy. Also in d2 you could dupe items, here it's much harder. They are making PoE also to be interesting in PvP. If it was legal, it would destroy PvP from begining. I am not suprised that d3 doesnt have PvP for now and any type of lader, becose of RMHA. PoE also has lader, and will probably have diferent lader types. You are asking for somthing that will destroy the game, in same way d2 was destroyed.

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CharanJaydemyr wrote:

But that's just my personal approach to it. Ends justifying means and all that. I don't think PoE will have *that* many gold farmers simply because I don't think it will have that much internal competition. I'd like to believe that anyone who'd farm gold on PoE would realise they can make more doing it on other games.

But I'm a crazy optimist. No doubt GGG have contemplated the reality of gold/item farmers. I do not envy them in that.

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Faerie_Storm wrote:

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CharanJaydemyr wrote:

But that's just my personal approach to it. Ends justifying means and all that. I don't think PoE will have *that* many gold farmers simply because I don't think it will have that much internal competition. I'd like to believe that anyone who'd farm gold on PoE would realise they can make more doing it on other games.

But I'm a crazy optimist. No doubt GGG have contemplated the reality of gold/item farmers. I do not envy them in that.

farm gold in PoE? That's a new one since there isn't any gold to be had....

But then you should *know* that being a beta member.

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Tagek wrote:

Although the item trading fee's are a bitch, but it is kind of a necessary evil. Because it makes people less likely to use this system, much like the server transfers in wow, they are expensive as shit, but if they didn't cost anything people would be transferring all over the place. However, yes, it is a cash-milking operation.
but they can do that if they want to, it is still a business after all, people seem to forget that sometimes.

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Faerie_Storm wrote:

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CharanJaydemyr wrote:

But that's just my personal approach to it. Ends justifying means and all that. I don't think PoE will have *that* many gold farmers simply because I don't think it will have that much internal competition. I'd like to believe that anyone who'd farm gold on PoE would realise they can make more doing it on other games.

But I'm a crazy optimist. No doubt GGG have contemplated the reality of gold/item farmers. I do not envy them in that.

farm gold in PoE? That's a new one since there isn't any gold to be had....

But then you should *know* that being a beta member.

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CharanJaydemyr wrote:

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Tagek wrote:

Although the item trading fee's are a bitch, but it is kind of a necessary evil. Because it makes people less likely to use this system, much like the server transfers in wow, they are expensive as shit, but if they didn't cost anything people would be transferring all over the place. However, yes, it is a cash-milking operation.
but they can do that if they want to, it is still a business after all, people seem to forget that sometimes.

Okay, that's where my cynicism meets my optimism. The fees are not very high. They're price-pointed precisely to seem innocuous. This is Blizzard's genius. There's no way a small fee per transaction is going to stop the majority of people who would consider going outside of the game to use real cash to get their gear. Most of us have jobs. It's an ageing gaming population and Diablo 3 is going to have a *horde* of 25-40 year olds struggling to recapture their glory days from D1 and D2. Temptation WILL get the better of them because they're going to remember just how much they hated farming.

Diablo 3 is going to make more than enough money on release day to cover its costs -- yes, speculation, not fact. But the CEs are selling out and, well, it's going to be huge. It's going to be incredible. To even begin to imply that post-point of sales transactions are what will make Diablo 3 'affordable' for Blizzard is lunacy. This is greed, Tagek. Raw, unadulterated greed.