Whats the point of changing ascenday but still forcing lab?

I don't like being broke on day 1 of a league, with all these new currency ggg is adding why can't i just start rich?

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j33bus wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

Logical straw-man argument silliness, I never claimed it was a majority. Read again, I only claimed that it was not ALWAYS the same people complaining. Now if you're arguing that 979 is the same people always complaining then that is also false since that list is still growing.

Statistical analysis: when doing the proper Bayesian statistics this translates to less than 1% of the 5 million people player base reported a year or so ago having any negative feelings about the lab ever since it's implementation, and not accounting for the rising total population since then or people whose feelings have changed since updates.

WOW and and and less than 0.0001% of all the people in world or compared to WOW WOW and and and and WOW WOW less than 0.00000000000000000000000001% compared to all the protons in the universe. Such amazing statistical analysis! WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW

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DrDraids wrote:

I don't like being broke on day 1 of a league, with all these new currency ggg is adding why can't i just start rich?

Start in standard silly goose.

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Turtledove wrote:

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j33bus wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

Logical straw-man argument silliness, I never claimed it was a majority. Read again, I only claimed that it was not ALWAYS the same people complaining. Now if you're arguing that 979 is the same people always complaining then that is also false since that list is still growing.

Statistical analysis: when doing the proper Bayesian statistics this translates to less than 1% of the 5 million people player base reported a year or so ago having any negative feelings about the lab ever since it's implementation, and not accounting for the rising total population since then or people whose feelings have changed since updates.

WOW and and and less than 0.0001% of all the people in world or compared to WOW WOW and and and and WOW WOW less than 0.00000000000000000000000001% compared to all the protons in the universe. Such amazing statistical analysis! WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW

Take a break. You're losing the rational, intelligent image you need to be taken seriously as an advocate against the Labyrinth.

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Orbaal wrote:

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gibbousmoon wrote:

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Orbaal wrote:

It has to include a comparable downside to what lab is right now...

Fortunately, GGG's behavior indicates that they are no less seduced by this statement than I am, but I am curious why this bizarre argument continues to be trotted out.

Thats a bold claim, when one of the core design decisions is and was to attach downsides or opportunity costs to pretty much everything.
Like a random unique item, that enables something but doesnt provide res or life as a downside.
Thats part of GGGs core philosophy and why wouldnt it apply to the only powercreep you can farm deterministically in this game?

Besides that:
Fun is subjective, not objective. Lab is a great example for that. It IS fun for some people.
But unfortunately whats fun to me isnt necessarily fun to you and vise versa.
Therefore a fun challenge cannot exist in reality.

I would say "a fun challenge cannot exist in reality" is a much bolder claim.

I do see your point about uniques being balanced with downsides, but tradeoffs influencing player decisions are not at all a downside in the sense of being unfun, and in fact are quite the opposite: It is arguably the sum total of decisions that we make within the framework of a video game that makes it compelling. In this sense "downsides" to individual uniques are an "upside" to the game as a whole, since they engage players' decision-making processes more.

When you point out that the Labyrinth is fun for some people, you are in fact identifying it as an "upside" to the game (albeit a qualified one), rather than supporting the statement that any alternative method of accessing your subclass "has to include a comparable downside to what lab is right now..."

An opportunity cost and a frustrating experience are not the same thing, and while the former is necessarily part of any ARPG (necessary because you can't remove them without also removing player decision), the latter is not.

The "bold claim" I make is based on Chris's words himself when he talks about design changes made to the Lab: The changes were attempts to remove unfun elements from it. Does that sound like someone who wants to preserve a downside to the game?

In short, I am making a blanket statement about ARPG design in general when I say that elements gatekeeping power can be fun. It is the entire foundation upon which character growth in a game of this nature rests.

The argument exists independent of whether you think the Labyrinth is fun or not, by the way. I'd like to see GGG continue trying to make the Lab a better experience for players, and it is the "Labyrinth must be unfun in order to do its job" statements that I identify as bizarre. I've seen variations of this statement which are much more explicit than yours, and I think anyone who thinks about the statement for a moment and follows it to its natural conclusions will realize what a horrible basis it is for any kind of ARPG design.

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Turtledove wrote:

Based on the fact that people stop playing PoE or stop donating to GGG because of the labyrinth or the lab disgust pouring out on these forums, it is apparently not as irrelevant as you claim.

Also, we're not campaigning for removal of labyrinth so his off topic post is not at all on topic.

is it only me or do i see a relatively new supporter packs next to your name? just besides the number denoting your league progress..

carry on with your crusade, carry on. the moment i saw how much time youve spent on these lists with all these marks i knew there is no way anyone will convince you that maybe - just maybe - the way you see things is well.. different

After looking at the new ascendecies (yes ironic) and even more power creep, I get less concerned every day about the lab.Its clear they are marginalizing it patch by patch. Hoofuckingray.

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Turtledove wrote:

The statement in [urlhttps://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1702621]Over 370 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 970 posters in support[/url] regarding labyrinth changes in 3.0 is the following

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Post PoE 3.0, GGG has made some significant improvements to the disliked labyrinth. They’ve eliminated most trap gauntlets in the first two labyrinths and significantly reduced the number of trials required. This has improved the game enough to get me to start playing PoE again. Starting 8/16/2017 I will just add names and put an “&” after the name. The other above analysis will not be done, except for the “+” for new thread starters.

For example, I have added an "&" after I saw Willemoesium's post above. So now his entry in the list is
Willemoesium ++ o$&

If i were you Turtledove, i'd email GGG and ask them if keeping your 970+poster thread updated is of any use to them. They'll probably be kind enough to respond. Updating it regularly, with symbols and such, just to combat what a few (maybe five?) people have stupidly stated seems like a lot of busywork without any real returns.

Although i understand that the thread was firstly created because of those stupid statements (even chris made some about lab), as you can see from this thread and many others, people still make them. This won't change, so unless you are having fun proving them wrong time after time, it doesn't really matter since GGG refuses to directly ask the playbase if it still likes the labyrinth or liked it to begin with.

They think they know better. They are too proud.

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Zalhan2 wrote:

After looking at the new ascendecies (yes ironic) and even more power creep, I get less concerned every day about the lab.Its clear they are marginalizing it patch by patch. Hoofuckingray.

The whole game is being marginalized that way, not just the lab.

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deserttfoxx wrote:

Lab is not fun, requires you to build a certain way just to do it and repetitive as fuck. Every time a new league comes out the only thing that doesnt change is how youre going to fight izaro. It optional content that is not optional because everyone is forced to do it.

A) It is optional. You don't need to ascend, you're not forced to go through it. There's nothing stopping you from mapping or doing any other content without an ascendancy, you just won't have as much power. And you definitely don't need the 4th if you can't handle getting it.

B) Lab doesn't require you to build a certain way to get through it, by a long shot. In all the characters I've ever made I've never had one that couldn't handle uber lab when i got around to doing it. Now running lab for speed and profit? That pushes your build in certain directions to optimize speed and safety. But to get through it once? Any build capable of doing low-tier maps solo can handle the first 3 labs easily, and any build capable of doing high yellows or low reds solo should be able to handle uber lab. It might take patience and caution, but it's entirely reasonable for just about anyone that isn't a support bot.

C) It's repetitive? How is it any more repetitive than going through the acts? How is it any more repetitive than mapping? If all you want are your ascendancies, you just need to do each lab ONCE. One time is repetitive?

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Shppy wrote:

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deserttfoxx wrote:

Lab is not fun, requires you to build a certain way just to do it and repetitive as fuck. Every time a new league comes out the only thing that doesnt change is how youre going to fight izaro. It optional content that is not optional because everyone is forced to do it.

A) It is optional. You don't need to ascend, you're not forced to go through it. There's nothing stopping you from mapping or doing any other content without an ascendancy, you just won't have as much power. And you definitely don't need the 4th if you can't handle getting it.

B) Lab doesn't require you to build a certain way to get through it, by a long shot. In all the characters I've ever made I've never had one that couldn't handle uber lab when i got around to doing it. Now running lab for speed and profit? That pushes your build in certain directions to optimize speed and safety. But to get through it once? Any build capable of doing low-tier maps solo can handle the first 3 labs easily, and any build capable of doing high yellows or low reds solo should be able to handle uber lab. It might take patience and caution, but it's entirely reasonable for just about anyone that isn't a support bot.

C) It's repetitive? How is it any more repetitive than going through the acts? How is it any more repetitive than mapping? If all you want are your ascendancies, you just need to do each lab ONCE. One time is repetitive?

Your right. Since the lab is optional and ascendencys are not needed they have not spent a whole dev cycle removing in their words “noob traps’. This implies only noobs take bad ones or none at all.

Their sentiment flatly making clear by Their words they are only ignored by bad players since even picking bad ones make you a noob.