Whats the point of changing ascenday but still forcing lab?

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EnjoyTheJourney wrote:

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mark1030 wrote:

Spoiler

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_Skittles_ wrote:

Gotta say I find these changes of words very amusing.

1. "I like this, so you must do it too!"
2. "I like this, can't understand why you don't!"
3. "Screw your opinions!"
4. "Your answer doesn't agree with me, so it doesn't matter!"
5. "Hey this is fun..." <- direct reply 6. "Omg you have so few challenges done this league, what you know about the game!?"

^^ pretty much sums up a lot of the replies to the thread, quite interesting though.

If following the top most 'quote' from the little list, I could make following claim;

"I liked how we had to run through the acts 1-4 three times, everyone who didn't do that, should need to do the same before they're allowed play PoE as it is now."

Now if I did that, I'd expect people answering me with the 3rd quote from the top of the reply I wrote.

But it follows the same logic people keep saying when it comes to Lab and feedback regarding it, why it's not same on this? People are weird. :3

Have a great weekend everyone!

_Skittles_

You're not looking at it objectively. You should include what those replies are replying to.
.5. “I don't like this, so the game should change to accomodate my personal preferences”
And 1.5. “I don't like this and can't see how anybody can”

I'd believe you if you said you were trying to be objective. I don't believe you succeeded, though.

If I alone didn't like something, I'd think "Well, that's the way it is." That's not the case here, though. At all.

So, your interpretation "I don't like something, it should be changed" should really be replaced with "A lot of people who play this game dislike / hate lab being the sole gateway for ascending, and we would like it to change."

As a more general observation, it's quite a bold claim to state that others are not objective about an issue, while implying that you are. Perhaps that's not what you intended, but your post certainly reads that way.

I doubt anyone in this thread or any thread regarding Lab can answer from 100% objectively point of view. There's always personal reasons why any of us believes what works and what doesn't, what is fair and what's not etc. etc.

Like I've given a suggestion regarding the Lab to have a chance to challenge Izaro (Throw in Argus in those fights if that makes you feel happier) and if you are victorious, you can get your Ascendency points. No extra loot, no prophecies, no enchantment, nothing except the points for the Ascendency.

If the above would happen, you could still run the Lab for the reasons you like, be it loot, fun, enchantments, prophecies or something else. Personally, I don't find running through the Lab's zones and looking for the next door to get at the end of the Lab where the Ascendency points are hold up now, a fun experience to me. And no, the traps aren't the worse part for me, it's the long run through the zones which I couldn't care at all.

I've done Lab runner characters in past, I got bored before getting past 50 runs in total on all of them (The loot was great, thank you very much!), I even stopped playing those leagues where I had those characters in. Yes, the lab runners I could pretty much go Sonic style through all the zones and barely think what to do, I found it boring, not fun.

GGG can't make everyone have fun, but where the changes are possible, they should be looked and thought about if there's something to improve. Stagnation is the death of games, improvement can be done in many areas and the fun-factor is what keeps the players playing. The idea of "It's been like this since X, it will always be like this." is very narrow-minded view of the situation. The two earlier Labs got changed already, and it was a step to right direction, since it made more players to keep playing.

From my own part, I'm NOT trying to remove the Lab, and neither are a lot of people who want change for it. Keep the Lab, heck, make it even harder! But give another option to get the Ascendency Points.

P.S. I don't even run through Trials after getting my Ascendency points done (Über Lab), because I find those boring too.

_Skittles_

I have an idea - add prophecy which disables all traps in lab. This prophecy should be pretty rare (--> expensive in market) so only the people who really need it will try to buy it.

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DivineChampion wrote:

I have an idea - add prophecy which disables all traps in lab. This prophecy should be pretty rare (--> expensive in market) so only the people who really need it will try to buy it.

I could get behind that idea, i suppose. Although I'd argue maybe not letting it work on uber lab.

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_Skittles_ wrote:

Like I've given a suggestion regarding the Lab to have a chance to challenge Izaro (Throw in Argus in those fights if that makes you feel happier) and if you are victorious, you can get your Ascendency points. No extra loot, no prophecies, no enchantment, nothing except the points for the Ascendency.

and i can't get behind that one.

Ascendancies are far too much of a gain to be given out with something as little as one rather simple boss fight. The loot and enchantment and whatnot are bonuses to doing it (in particular to make it repeatable content), but ultimately the reason for gating ascendancies behind the lab to it make you do something more extra-ordinary (and something that can't just be overleveled) to acquire significantly more of a power gain than you get from anywhere else. Boiling it down to just fighting Izaro (even with Argus present) is not an extra-ordinary task worthy of giving that power... we take down bosses all the time, it's nothing special.

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mark1030 wrote:

You're not looking at it objectively. You should include what those replies are replying to.
.5. “I don't like this, so the game should change to accomodate my personal preferences”
And 1.5. “I don't like this and can't see how anybody can”

.5. "This is the Feedback and Suggestion forum. If you don't want to read people giving their personal preferences as to how they might like the game to be improved then don't read this forum."

1.5. "I really don't like the mediocre trap game play. It insults and demeans an otherwise great game."

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Shppy wrote:

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DivineChampion wrote:

I have an idea - add prophecy which disables all traps in lab. This prophecy should be pretty rare (--> expensive in market) so only the people who really need it will try to buy it.

I could get behind that idea, i suppose. Although I'd argue maybe not letting it work on uber lab.

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_Skittles_ wrote:

Like I've given a suggestion regarding the Lab to have a chance to challenge Izaro (Throw in Argus in those fights if that makes you feel happier) and if you are victorious, you can get your Ascendency points. No extra loot, no prophecies, no enchantment, nothing except the points for the Ascendency.

and i can't get behind that one.

Ascendancies are far too much of a gain to be given out with something as little as one rather simple boss fight. The loot and enchantment and whatnot are bonuses to doing it (in particular to make it repeatable content), but ultimately the reason for gating ascendancies behind the lab to it make you do something more extra-ordinary (and something that can't just be overleveled) to acquire significantly more of a power gain than you get from anywhere else. Boiling it down to just fighting Izaro (even with Argus present) is not an extra-ordinary task worthy of giving that power... we take down bosses all the time, it's nothing special.

How about the following idea for ascending?

Instead of trials and then lab, you directly enter Izaro's Arena. You fight waves of challengers, beginning with a slew of randomized exiles who are all fighting both you and each other. In the next round you fight a slew of exiles at once who are all coordinating to target you because they've figured out that they need to team up to beat you. Some of the gods themselves get involved at some point in the process (which helps to justify ascension), some seeded with one or more tormented spirits / essences (Izaro can have essences / tormented ghosts as well, and he's the final fight).

Lab could be for players and builds that can't handle Izaro's Arena. Which would be fine by a lot of us because then we're actually playing an ARPG with lore attached to ascendancy that isn't silly and time spent maneuvering a frog through traffic would be cut to zero.

Lab could be retained mainly for enchants / puzzles, etc, much like a kind of Mad Wizard's Tower.

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Turtledove wrote:

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mark1030 wrote:

You're not looking at it objectively. You should include what those replies are replying to.
.5. “I don't like this, so the game should change to accomodate my personal preferences”
And 1.5. “I don't like this and can't see how anybody can”

.5. "This is the Feedback and Suggestion forum. If you don't want to read people giving their personal preferences as to how they might like the game to be improved then don't read this forum."

1.5. "I really don't like the mediocre trap game play. It insults and demeans an otherwise great game."

Your .5 should be .25. That applies to both sides of the argument. Since point one was a reply, all I did was indicate what point one is supposedly replying to. There are two sides to the conversation but the person I quoted was only giving one side of it.

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Shppy wrote:

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DivineChampion wrote:

I have an idea - add prophecy which disables all traps in lab. This prophecy should be pretty rare (--> expensive in market) so only the people who really need it will try to buy it.

I could get behind that idea, i suppose. Although I'd argue maybe not letting it work on uber lab.

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_Skittles_ wrote:

Like I've given a suggestion regarding the Lab to have a chance to challenge Izaro (Throw in Argus in those fights if that makes you feel happier) and if you are victorious, you can get your Ascendency points. No extra loot, no prophecies, no enchantment, nothing except the points for the Ascendency.

and i can't get behind that one.

Ascendancies are far too much of a gain to be given out with something as little as one rather simple boss fight. The loot and enchantment and whatnot are bonuses to doing it (in particular to make it repeatable content), but ultimately the reason for gating ascendancies behind the lab to it make you do something more extra-ordinary (and something that can't just be overleveled) to acquire significantly more of a power gain than you get from anywhere else. Boiling it down to just fighting Izaro (even with Argus present) is not an extra-ordinary task worthy of giving that power... we take down bosses all the time, it's nothing special.

Lol you just ruined your argument. If you honestly think that RUNNING through the lab to get to Itzaro is ''extra-ordinary'', you certainly have not played a lot of hard games. Running through lab is TEDIOUS, not hard. Playing a game like Dark souls is hard. A person with brain damage could do Uber Itzaro, that's how hard it is. Getting to it though is tedious unless you actively use Global 820 to get every trial+the whole run to get to him.

Remember, Tedious versus hard, different meanings.

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EnjoyTheJourney wrote:

How about the following idea for ascending?

Instead of trials and then lab, you directly enter Izaro's Arena. You fight waves of challengers, beginning with a slew of randomized exiles who are all fighting both you and each other. In the next round you fight a slew of exiles at once who are all coordinating to target you because they've figured out that they need to team up to beat you. Some of the gods themselves get involved at some point in the process (which helps to justify ascension), some seeded with one or more tormented spirits / essences (Izaro can have essences / tormented ghosts as well, and he's the final fight).

Lab could be for players and builds that can't handle Izaro's Arena. Which would be fine by a lot of us because then we're actually playing an ARPG with lore attached to ascendancy that isn't silly and time spent maneuvering a frog through traffic would be cut to zero.

Lab could be retained mainly for enchants / puzzles, etc, much like a kind of Mad Wizard's Tower.

I really like that idea!

A minor tangent to your Frogger comment, for trap game play, Frogger beats the mediocre Labyrinth hands down for fun trap game play. For example, a good improvement to labyrinth would be to be able to use the keyboard arrow keys to maneuver one's character through the traps. It would still probably be mediocre compared to Frogger but it would be better than the current loathsome labyrinth.

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andreicde wrote:

Lol you just ruined your argument. If you honestly think that RUNNING through the lab to get to Itzaro is ''extra-ordinary'', you certainly have not played a lot of hard games. Running through lab is TEDIOUS, not hard. Playing a game like Dark souls is hard. A person with brain damage could do Uber Itzaro, that's how hard it is. Getting to it though is tedious unless you actively use Global 820 to get every trial+the whole run to get to him.

Remember, Tedious versus hard, different meanings.

Remember, extra-ordinary vs hard, different meanings.

I don't recall saying lab was hard. I said it's extra-ordinary (hyphenated for emphasis). Perhaps I shoulda went with 'unorthodox'. It's unusual, different. You mindlessly kill things all the time, be it mobs or bosses. Ascending gives you a different kind of power than just leveling or gearing, it should take a different kind of effort put in.

As for lab being tedious? Matter of opinion and circumstance. Sometimes lab feels tedious to me, especially if I've been running it over and over. Of course, same can be said for mapping, especially on the same map base over and over. But doing it once in a while? Nah, feels fine. It's something different to mix it up.

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Turtledove wrote:

A minor tangent to your Frogger comment, for trap game play, Frogger beats the mediocre Labyrinth hands down for fun trap game play. For example, a good improvement to labyrinth would be to be able to use the keyboard arrow keys to maneuver one's character through the traps. It would still probably be mediocre compared to Frogger but it would be better than the current loathsome labyrinth.

This is an intriguing idea.

I've been thinking about what makes Frogger fun and playable and I came to more or less the same conclusion as you: Precision. Similarly, the relatively lower precision of a mouse probably makes trap maneuvering a lot less fun for certain players.

I wonder how it is on Xbox, but I suspect it isn't much better, since an analogue stick is not really any more precise.

Now, there is an argument made (and a pretty strong one at that) by Labyrinth apologists that development of mouse precision is necessary for players regardless, given GGG's propensity for spamming shit everywhere in boss arenas. But there's also a group of people who think this too is a bad thing (perhaps for similar reasons?), some of whom even skip bosses in maps.

In any case, positioning and piloting skills will always be necessary in an ARPG of this nature, with perhaps the exception of super-cheesy meta builds. I think designing content with the existing control scheme in mind is a superior approach to introducing a new one.

I'm just thinking out loud here, so opposing viewpoints are welcome.