Is the root problem that the Labyrinth is "Optional"?

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CidAvadose wrote:

He's not saying it is wrong that people "do not like it." He's saying that a lot of the complaints people have boil down to "do not like it." He's also saying that some people come up with reasons that are not valid to hide that their reason is that they "do not like it."

While I love Path of Exile there are many parts that I do not like personally
examples: Nemisis Mods, Bloodline Modes, tormented spirits
But I can understand that they add to the game and other people do

Unless there is a marked decrease in players playing the game in response to the Labyrinth (which GGG would notice) some players being vocal that they do not like it (but are still playing it) will not make much of a difference since every player has things they do not like.

None of those mods you mentioned are part of the normal gameplay in the sense that they are required content to flesh out your build.

Lab is.

What it sounds like what you are saying, and what many others are saying is that you are not allowed to hold a dissenting opinion on the direction of the game development.

If people simply stopped playing, how would the devs know why they stopped playing?

I would love to know the metrics behind how many people either 1. Do not complete the lab past normal or cruel 2. What level they start to do lab 3. What the completion rate is ie: How many people simply give up.

I don't do game development (although it's on my bucket list) but I have done application development in hospital settings for over 20 years.

A dev has to listen to their target base and not get hung up on a pet process or functionality. They can believe how essential it is to the core application, but unless the end user sees it as worthwhile, it's not.

Sometimes you need to let go of the pet concepts.

Unrelated to the subject rant:

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None of those mods you mentioned are part of the normal gameplay in the sense that they are required content to flesh out your build.

Almost every hardcore character I have dies to a tormented spirit, bloodline mod, or nemesis mod.

I have to plan for those spikes in damage out-put either in creature damage or sudden on death happenings.

Every time I rebuild my character it is to make it more defensive to survive those mods.

How again are these not effecting my builds at every moment of the game (since they are in every area)?

Related:
All new content that gets added to the core affects players. It is just that the Labyrinth is not subtle in how it does.

There is no "normal gameplay".

There is a game developed by GGG, and they dictate what there is in it, and there is a Labyrinth.
It is part of "PoE's gameplay".

If people just stopped playing, GGG would know that they just did something that pushed people to stop playing, and they could identify what it is.
Lab didn't do that.

GGG does listen to feedback, they have the reputation of doing more than what video game companies usually do.

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CidAvadose wrote:

Unrelated to the subject rant:

"

None of those mods you mentioned are part of the normal gameplay in the sense that they are required content to flesh out your build.

Almost every hardcore character I have dies to a tormented spirit, bloodline mod, or nemesis mod.

I have to plan for those spikes in damage out-put either in creature damage or sudden on death happenings.

Every time I rebuild my character it is to make it more defensive to survive those mods.

How again are these not effecting my builds at every moment of the game (since they are in every area)?

Related:
All new content that gets added to the core affects players. It is just that the Labyrinth is not subtle in how it does.

I understand, and it's why you see a lot of discussions on min-max/ ES vs Life etc. I used to play hardcore when my kids were younger but now they are too much of a distraction and hardcore, as you rightfully point out, can be quite unforgiving.

Also, as an aside, you pointed out that you are working on overcoming those shortcomings to address the issue. Circling back to lab, there is literally nothing you can do short of rolling a character that is purpose built for lab, to overcome the lab shortcomings.

What I find interesting is that almost to a person, the apologists for lab use the poelab website and do not see the irony behind why that website exists in the first place.

You can overcome the lab, you just need to put some effort into that.
long story short : get better.
That's how you overcome lab, and it makes a better player overall.

And no, you do not know who uses poelab and who doesn't.

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Circling back to lab, there is literally nothing you can do short of rolling a character that is purpose built for lab, to overcome the lab shortcomings.

I'll add at this point that I've also lost many hardcore characters to the lab.

So I ran the trails, at each difficulty repeatedly, then ran the lab multiple times Now the lab does not seem difficult anymore.

I got better at noticing boss monster special attacks and dodging them with the practice of noticing trap abilities and dodging them. I didn't expect that, but I was very happy to see it.

But those Nemesis mod monsters are still a pain in my ass.

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ewolow wrote:

Circling back to lab, there is literally nothing you can do short of rolling a character that is purpose built for lab, to overcome the lab shortcomings.

what a load of bs we have right here.

please, just please stop making a fool of yourself

ill link it again here:

tell me - what is 'purpose built for lab' on this picture:


c'mon, do it. impress me.

or maybe the main differentiating factor between 'characters that can do the lab' and the other group is the SKILL of the player playing said character.

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sidtherat wrote:

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ewolow wrote:

Circling back to lab, there is literally nothing you can do short of rolling a character that is purpose built for lab, to overcome the lab shortcomings.

what a load of bs we have right here.

please, just please stop making a fool of yourself

ill link it again here:

tell me - what is 'purpose built for lab' on this picture:

Spoiler

crap life, crap damage, crap skill (Shrapnel Shot), no vaal pact, lvl 69, solo

c'mon, do it. impress me.

or maybe the main differentiating factor between 'characters that can do the lab' and the other group is the SKILL of the player playing said character.

Ok, I'll stop for the feed the troll moment.

What is it you are trying to express? That you speed run the lab with the character you posted a screen shot of?

I have a melee cyclone that does lab so I'm not sure what your point is other than to try and say the lab is beatable, with which the response is: yeah. No shit.

Perhaps you simply don't understand the argument? No one is saying lab is hard, or not able to be done. If you don't understand, just ask.

Don't run into a room bleating about how foolish the speaker is until you actually understand what the speaker is talking about. ProTip: It doesn't make *them* sound foolish.

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Turtledove wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

"Most" people ?
You never stop with fallacies, do you ?

*sigh*

Ironically, you seem to have reading troubles here :

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SkyCore wrote:

have never heard a decent argument against the lab. It seems to me opponents of the lab dont even understand why they dont like it, so they invented convoluted reasoning which all boils down to 'i dont like it'.

Sorry, you're plain wrong. This is a game. We play games when we like the game. "I don't like it" is a very valid reason for not liking the labyrinth.

You are right, if you dont like it you dont like it. Furthermore you have every right to express your dislike.
But... There are a couple deeper issues into what you 'dont like' and how it has been expressed in such threads:
1) the convoluted reasoning attempting to justify 'why' it isnt liked is all kinds of false. For many issues there exist similar things elsewhere in the game in different forms. For example; the non-optional part, virtually every aspect of playing the game well is 'non-optional'. Getting max resists, mapping, leveling, spending points on the tree efficiently, equipping good gear, etc. Another example would be the length of lab; getting another character level takes FAR longer. '

2) you have expectations of what the game 'should' be like. Let me tell you after playing well over a 1000 games i know very well a game is what the designers make of it. The devs give you tools and obstacles, 'the game' is to use the tools to overcome the obstacles. Wishing for better tools (or weaker obstacles) is natural, we all want more relative power, but in the long run it is the struggle and the journey which is fun, not the destination (at least for any amount of time).

I was a dev of a couple mmorpgs (area design (and general enforcer) in 2, programmer in another). When you have absolute power, even in just a virtual world, it changes the way you think. Once you get beyond achieving more power it gives you perspective on what is 'best' for a game. And best in my eyes is giving a dynamic environment with as many meaningful options as possible to the player. Often viewed through the lens of risk vs reward or penalty vs benefit there needs to be the possibility of failure (either absolute failure or loss of time) for a player to get invested into the game. Just think about how good you feel after doing merciless/uber lab and thinking to yourself, god im glad thats over. You cant have that feeling if the lab is trivial.

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ewolow wrote:

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sidtherat wrote:

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ewolow wrote:

Circling back to lab, there is literally nothing you can do short of rolling a character that is purpose built for lab, to overcome the lab shortcomings.

what a load of bs we have right here.

please, just please stop making a fool of yourself

ill link it again here:

tell me - what is 'purpose built for lab' on this picture:

Spoiler

crap life, crap damage, crap skill (Shrapnel Shot), no vaal pact, lvl 69, solo

c'mon, do it. impress me.

or maybe the main differentiating factor between 'characters that can do the lab' and the other group is the SKILL of the player playing said character.

Ok, I'll stop for the feed the troll moment.

What is it you are trying to express? That you speed run the lab with the character you posted a screen shot of?

I have a melee cyclone that does lab so I'm not sure what your point is other than to try and say the lab is beatable, with which the response is: yeah. No shit.

Perhaps you simply don't understand the argument? No one is saying lab is hard, or not able to be done. If you don't understand, just ask.

Don't run into a room bleating about how foolish the speaker is until you actually understand what the speaker is talking about. ProTip: It doesn't make *them* sound foolish.

lots of words but no substance

your claim is that you 'have to build a character certain way to overcome the lab'. it is a very clear message here. and it is a complete BS

try to steer away it as much as you want but when you spread BS around be ready to be called out. and i call you out - my absolutelly non-meta, non-optimized, nothing character can do it on the first try with ~3.5k hp, crap damage, even crappier gear and using the most non-meta skill ever.

why? because i know what i am doing. and people who claim that they have to build a 'special' something simply do not. yet they dare to 'express their opinion' based on their own lack of experience. lots of fools then repeat these claims as 'facts' and the circle jerk begins