Is the root problem that the Labyrinth is "Optional"?

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sidtherat wrote:

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The skills/character build needed in the labyrinth do not benefit the rest of the game.

sure, sure. maybe for people who know little about how this game plays besides 'right click in the general direction of mobs and pray for vaal pact to save me'

the skills are EXACTLY the same entire game demands - the difference is, glasscannons cannot 'win' by just stacking damage (sadly - entire game allows for that so they EXPECT this to be still the case)

given that people hate both izaro fight (he is a mercilles killer of bad players playing bad builds) and traps (killers of sloppy, rush-rush-rush obsessed impatient types) one of the main reasons players hate it is the simple fact: it exposes their deficiencies and cannot be easily cheated trough

if only said players used this learning opportunity to better themselves. but no, theyll waste 10 or 100 times as much time to create countless whine threads about how the content beat them

try to replicate this with just right-click:

Spoiler

crap life, crap damage, crap skill (Shrapnel Shot), no vaal pact, lvl 69, solo

one note about possible 'solution' to this 'problem'

GGG failed and failed hard when they communicated why Lab is what it is - a rite of passage, something that makes sure players know the basics of defences, movement and sustain. two causes there: 1) there was no communication at all (here is the lab, enjoy. this is not enough) 2) current power creep plus certain 'cheats' players can abuse to tackle content far above their own skill level (vaal pact, ES stacking, meta-skills, doubledip) makes these basics (defences and sustain mostly) irrelevant.

the day VP is removed from the game (probably never) is the day people will suddenly find that Lab is VERY good at teaching them how to survive end-game without cheats (14k ES pool + VP is just like cheating..)

Not before stopping the carries with gazillion DPS that one shot every time Izaro or any boss for that matter...

Broken mechanics/skills/items or interactions should be addressed as soon as possible, or at least on a monthly if not weekly basis if you are invested in balancing the game.

Mechanically, Izaro & Uber Izaro fights are part of the best ones available in the game, but having to pass at time through boring patterns of traps with low visibility, enjoy disconnects for various reasons, and just run around without exploring or clearing the monsters feels lackluster, and just "filler" for no good reason instead of getting to the good stuff by killing like in traditional ARPG sense - for Atziri/Uber Atziri/Guardians or Shaper you have it easy, only Izaro is different, so by being different why not make it a mandatory SOLO experience for Ascendancy points if he is that gear/build/skill check that everyone touts him to be???

caries are a problem. mainly because of 'support' characters that cannot do izaro alone

not that i like support concept at all. so maybe forcing solo experience would solve two problems at once?

i got carried once (had malfunctioioning connection with 200ms ping instead regular 40ms) and carried twuce (for free) and i ascended - uber included - like 50 characters. most of them nonmeta and nonstacked out.

whats more. leveling in merc lab is comparable to dried lake xp/loot wise AND you get an enchant at the end. did that twice and doing like 5 runs gives you a level plus all the stuff you pick up (note - you do not have to skip everything..)

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SkyCore wrote:

The root problem is players expectations.
The rest of the entire game is just blowing up shit as fast as possible in relatively small zones.
Enter a long series of zones combined with mechanics outside of killable mobs. There is some backlash from players who enjoy the comfort of the 'same old same old'.
Personally i find such ppl narrowminded, and have never heard a decent argument against the lab. It seems to me opponents of the lab dont even understand why they dont like it, so they invented convoluted reasoning which all boils down to 'i dont like it'.

Nicely said.

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Fruz wrote:

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SkyCore wrote:

The root problem is players expectations.
The rest of the entire game is just blowing up shit as fast as possible in relatively small zones.
Enter a long series of zones combined with mechanics outside of killable mobs. There is some backlash from players who enjoy the comfort of the 'same old same old'.
Personally i find such ppl narrowminded, and have never heard a decent argument against the lab. It seems to me opponents of the lab dont even understand why they dont like it, so they invented convoluted reasoning which all boils down to 'i dont like it'.

Nicely said.

Neah, close but not "gud enuh"...

Some of those that find "Labyrinth" underwhelming would like to give Izaro a purpose - want to Ascend, fine, do it on your own, and as long as you had to tune up your build to face Atziri, you should be expected to tune your build versus Izaro too, even if you want to play a support character - and an encouragement of tactical play, that actually requires skill, should have been a priority instead of using content supposed to slow the "speed meta" down to have racing ladders without also requesting either fully clear or exploring every zone...

Too many missed opportunities, unfortunately for those that say that Labyrinth is fine, there are those that would like it to be improved...

And we once were proud of the multiple choices that the game offered on every level, regarding customisation of the builds or playstyles...

"Most" people ?
You never stop with fallacies, do you ?

*sigh*

Ironically, you seem to have reading troubles here :

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SkyCore wrote:

have never heard a decent argument against the lab. It seems to me opponents of the lab dont even understand why they dont like it, so they invented convoluted reasoning which all boils down to 'i dont like it'.

@sofocle11111 :
You can kill Izaro with any decent build, those thinking that it's build selective have it completely wrong and just fail to understand it ( and / or are just bad ).
Support characters ? What is that new fallacy now ?
Support characters are being designed to be played with other characters, and then there is 0 problems fighting Izaro with another decently built character ( non support obviously ).

And SkyCore was probably not implying that everybody that had to say something about the lab was to put in this category btw, there is constructive critisicm and there is QQing.
Some things could be improved, like everything else in the game.

People here are biased by their playstyle. Trade. The real reason they hate the lab is that it boils down to the one thing you can't trade for. You can pay someone to help, but you have to play it. Everything else mentioned as "optional" in the OP can be replaced with trade.

Trade vs. SSF is the real problem here.

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The_Reporter wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

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SkyCore wrote:

The root problem is players expectations.
The rest of the entire game is just blowing up shit as fast as possible in relatively small zones.
Enter a long series of zones combined with mechanics outside of killable mobs. There is some backlash from players who enjoy the comfort of the 'same old same old'.
Personally i find such ppl narrowminded, and have never heard a decent argument against the lab. It seems to me opponents of the lab dont even understand why they dont like it, so they invented convoluted reasoning which all boils down to 'i dont like it'.

Nicely said.

It's not "nicely said". Most people lay out in detail exactly what it is they don't like about the crap experience of it all. Blockheads like you two just don't know how to read properly.

It's pretty spot on. The vast majority of lab qq posts are terrible and not even logically consistent so they force the reader to make assumptions about the real motivations behind them. Just saying they're "crap experience" or "bad design" really means nothing. It boils down to "i don't like it" and the reason is left to the reader to assume because the stated ones are generally not plausible.

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SkyCore wrote:

The root problem is players expectations.
The rest of the entire game is just blowing up shit as fast as possible in relatively small zones.
Enter a long series of zones combined with mechanics outside of killable mobs. There is some backlash from players who enjoy the comfort of the 'same old same old'.

Personally i find such ppl narrowminded, and have never heard a decent argument against the lab. It seems to me opponents of the lab dont even understand why they dont like it, so they invented convoluted reasoning which all boils down to 'i dont like it'.

Hearing a decent argument or accepting an argument as decent are two different things. You have a good sized number of people that don't like that content in it's current configuration. They do not need your approval to hold such an opinion.

Really, who's being narrowminded? In my experience, not accepting the reasoning of others tends to fit this description.

There are multiple reasons why people don't like it, you even noted it yourself: A long series of zones without killable mobs. You cannot understand why that might be considered boring, monotonous, tedious, and artificially forced to reach gated content?

I don't personally agree with all these reasons, but I understand and accept them.

Reasons:

1. It's an unusually long time commitment compared to virtually every other aspect of the game requiring you to play start to finish with not only barriers to completion being real life, but also internet connections, game crashes, etc.
2. There is no universal way to mitigate the effects of the traps unless you create a purpose built character to run the lab.
3. It adds a hardcore type game play element for people that chose a specific league to avoid hardcore type game play elements.
4. The traps are not hard, they are time consuming, and intended to slow you down. There are people that do not like sitting in traffic on their way to work either.
5. End "reward" is intrinsic to builds, more so than most optional quests, but factored like it's optional.

Now I'm sure you can hit me with "but but.. pathfinders can blitz lab in 2 minutes". Yep, they can.

Should everyone play a pathfinder?

Lastly, the reason I personally agree with:

If it's meant as optional content, then it needs to be truly optional. Ascension needs to come out of it. Leave everything else there. The enchant is a reward, the keys and chests are a reward, the special uniques, all rewards.

Ascending? Not a reward. It's essential character progression, plain and simple.

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ewolow wrote:

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SkyCore wrote:

Enter a long series of zones combined with mechanics outside of killable mobs.

you even noted it yourself: A long series of zones without killable mobs.

Very good example of how to try creating a fallacious argument : modifying other's words to your "convenience".


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