Is the root problem that the Labyrinth is "Optional"?

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The_Reporter wrote:

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DurianMcgregor wrote:

It's pretty spot on. The vast majority of lab qq posts are terrible and not even logically consistent so they force the reader to make assumptions about the real motivations behind them. Just saying they're "crap experience" or "bad design" really means nothing. It boils down to "i don't like it" and the reason is left to the reader to assume because the stated ones are generally not plausible.

There's many posts by many users detailing exactly why the lab & trial frogger system is crap in their eyes.

The only thing spot on is that you're clearly one of those with a reading comprehension disability.

Well there is also a whole many that do not fit those criteria. Actually someone made a nice list of Lab QQ posts, just look through them and if you honestly can say that most of them bring reasonable arguments it is already a lot.

I'm sure not why GGG doesn't want to change some things with the lab, like reducing them to 3, which would fit better with the lore (Act3, Act8 and Uberlab). And I'm also not sure why they stick to trials which are one of the most reasonable hated parts of the lab, because they are mainly wasting the time of players and are not really a good preview of traps because lab gauntlets are often so much easier than those.

Also hardly any of those posts explain why the lab is bad, they mostly just focus on the fact that PoE didn't had traps before in the game. Deus Ex was Shooter with RPG elements and that was fucking amazing. Nobody complaint that "Uuh... this is a shooter... and seriously you have to talk to people?".

ARPGs evolved from Action Adventures which had a shitton of traps, and they aren't even rare in ARPGs (Skyrim, Torchlight and even Diablo 2 had a few). So most of those arguments rarely focus on actual gameplay indication but the feel that traps don't belong there, which is an opinion not necessarily shared by everyone.

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Fruz wrote:

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ewolow wrote:

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SkyCore wrote:

Enter a long series of zones combined with mechanics outside of killable mobs.

you even noted it yourself: A long series of zones without killable mobs.

Very good example of how to try creating a fallacious argument : modifying other's words to your "convenience".


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What fallacy are you referring to? Be specific.

I quoted the OP exactly and in context to the discussion. Simply calling something a fallacy doesn't actually make it a fallacy, and arguing something is a fallacy doesn't negate the reasoning behind what is stated.

Now, if we're done with this red herring (That *is* a fallacy), can we address the topic and the discussion and why you think the content is not any of things suggested by people that do not care for it?

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Emphasy wrote:

I'm sure not why GGG doesn't want to change some things with the lab, like reducing them to 3, which would fit better with the lore (Act3, Act8 and Uberlab). And I'm also not sure why they stick to trials which are one of the most reasonable hated parts of the lab, because they are mainly wasting the time of players and are not really a good preview of traps because lab gauntlets are often so much easier than those.

Also hardly any of those posts explain why the lab is bad, they mostly just focus on the fact that PoE didn't had traps before in the game. Deus Ex was Shooter with RPG elements and that was fucking amazing. Nobody complaint that "Uuh... this is a shooter... and seriously you have to talk to people?".

ARPGs evolved from Action Adventures which had a shitton of traps, and they aren't even rare in ARPGs (Skyrim, Torchlight and even Diablo 2 had a few). So most of those arguments rarely focus on actual gameplay indication but the feel that traps don't belong there, which is an opinion not necessarily shared by everyone.

The 3 lab thing would be more logical in one way, but not fit the idea of making sure every lab was equally rewarding of ac points. For example if its 3 labs total, is it 3-3-2 or 2-2-4 or how to distribute the points.


Its far better to introduce players to trials that are harder outside the lab, then the ones in the lab being more difficult. Because the trials are separate introductions of each of the implementation it makes sense for them to be long enough to get the point across.


Thats because a good number of the people complaining about the lab aren't willing to put forth anymore effort then comparing it to a shit eating contest or simple one line arguments, they have nothing to stand on, because the lab is fine. You do a challenge, you get a reward.



In terms of giving the rewards every 20 levels (or any reward outside of a specific side challenge) is just giving away power that is meant to be earned. The funny thing to me is we have people saying the lab is stupid easy, but they don't actually do it, then just shitpost on the forums and complain about it. We also have people that say the lab is too hard and even impossible for some builds (which is simply not true)


It can't be both, so the more logical explanation is that its in the middle, a piece of content that has some challenging aspects and some non challenging (read annoying to some people) aspects.


But I think we all can maybe agree that AC classes are the single largest form of power creep this game has given players, especially considering the cost involved to the player (next to nothing)

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The_Reporter wrote:

There's many posts by many users detailing exactly why the lab & trial frogger system is crap in their eyes.

Well, if you can't compress it into one sentence it's just a pile of bull. Some can and most of them fall into three major complaints.

1. It isn't like the rest of the game.
- I agree with this one, of course, it's kinda obvious and I also agree it didn't have to be different, they could have given us more of the same and lose zero players. However, is the rest of the game really that uniform? Take master missions, for example, you got king of the hill, escort, dueling and Vorici's missions are probably the farthest possible from the standard ARPG fare. People did complain about those too but they don't anymore because everything was made more than trivial, now nobody complains anymore. So what's the problem then? Lab being different or being different and not looney tunes mode?

2. It's required for character development.
- Technically it isn't, but we probably shouldn't delude ourselves, if it's powerful it's mandatory for us. However, is that really a problem? Capping reses is mandatory for survival and is probably the most mundane and boring checkbox of them all. How about stacking X life or ES? The game is chock full of boring mandatory tasks that are required for character development, what's one more or less?

3. It's more hardcore than softcore.
- It is, and I think it's a good thing. If you like ponies and rainbows 100% of the time you'll need to farm dried lake because even maps are kinda hardcore, you get 6 tries to finish it if solo and only one try in a 6 man party. It's kinda funny but we come to the #1 again, finishing a map is trivial so it is no problem the concept is essentially more hardcore than softcore.

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The_Reporter wrote:

You're missing quite a few.

I can start with a couple.

Boring and uninspired - poor game design. Why should I endure lousy game design that I donated hundreds of dollars to help develop?

Not challenging/easy to cheese - Why have something so easily overcome by reading 3rd party sites/overleveling/cheese skills & methods etc. and call it some great challenge to overcome?

Poor performance - Poorly optimized game and flaky servers stressed by bot overload.

There are many, many more for those not suffering from information uptake bias. (aka: fanboyism)

Subjective, dear Watson, subjective. Except for the performance part, of course, and that isn't really a problem anymore unless it's on your side in which case devs can only offer you their most sincere condolences.

Mind you, I'm not saying 'don't like it' doesn't make for a valid feedback but it isn't something you can spur devs into action with unless the number of people that hate it enough to leave the game hits critical mass, which obviously didn't happen. You'll have to ask devs what would they consider critical mass, though, it varies.

What I'm saying is your movement reminds me a lot of Ascendant, you lack a hard selling point and you won't get anywhere without that.

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Fruz wrote:

"Most" people ?
You never stop with fallacies, do you ?

*sigh*

Ironically, you seem to have reading troubles here :

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SkyCore wrote:

have never heard a decent argument against the lab. It seems to me opponents of the lab dont even understand why they dont like it, so they invented convoluted reasoning which all boils down to 'i dont like it'.

Sorry, you're plain wrong. This is a game. We play games when we like the game. "I don't like it" is a very valid reason for not liking the labyrinth.

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ewolow wrote:

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I literally said what it was.
You were modifying SkyCore's words to try to make them fit your argument, where they just didn't.
That is fallacious, your sentence (fallaciously saying "you said so yourself") just has another meaning than the actual quote.

I even bolded the parts that mattered to make it more obvious.
You can read again if you don't get it.

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Turtledove wrote:

Sorry, you're plain wrong. This is a game. We play games when we like the game. "I don't like it" is a very valid reason for not liking the labyrinth.

So now, "I don't like it" is an "argument" ?

You are missing the point here.

An no shit, many players don't like being pushed out of their comfort zone, such a pity, how dare you do that GGG ???

He's not saying it is wrong that people "do not like it." He's saying that a lot of the complaints people have boil down to "do not like it." He's also saying that some people come up with reasons that are not valid to hide that their reason is that they "do not like it."

While I love Path of Exile there are many parts that I do not like personally
examples: Nemisis Mods, Bloodline Modes, tormented spirits
But I can understand that they add to the game and other people do

Unless there is a marked decrease in players playing the game in response to the Labyrinth (which GGG would notice) some players being vocal that they do not like it (but are still playing it) will not make much of a difference since every player has things they do not like.