Change % damage from traps to flat damage in lab already.

It's common knowledge that lab is universally hated by hc players. If me saying this and the possible reasons provided in this and other threads aren't proof enough, feel free to join a hardcore league and see for yourselves.

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Turtledove wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

Hardcore player complaining about a challenge is fucking priceless.

You always seem to miss the point. The "complaint" is that labyrinth has driven away his fellow HC players. Please try to pay better attention.

I'm a HC only player - I love challenges, but I like not RIP'ing to 'cheese' mechanics even more. (using a % damage is really just an artificial threat - I loathe it to no end, to me it just means they gave up and could not figure out a way to balance it) Because I'm a HC player my characters die, I reroll - so for example this season I ripped at 82, 85 and 89 in the first few weeks. I have to run this lab over and over again - no choice, I hate it every time. I don't even want to reroll again knowing I have to do it again for my character to be viable.

What I hate even more is not having anyone to group up with.

Honestly, I can live with the lab the way it is, I don't think I SHOULD like everything the game throws at me. under normal circumstances I would not even complain about it at all, but for the fact that its hurting the game, its killing HC, its driving other players away. and to me, that IS actually terrible.

goetzjam, I used to really respect your opinions man, still do most of the time, but I really think your off with these 'pro-lab' defense. When do you stop playing HC? two seasons ago? somehow I think you might see things differently if that was not the case. maybe not...

GGG can do whatever they want, I don't expect them to listen to me or anyone else, but if the next HC season is like this one (ded after 1 month) it will be time to move on for me. I would really prefer to have a reason to stay and keep supporting this game instead.

.

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Zee wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

"

goetzjam wrote:

Hardcore player complaining about a challenge is fucking priceless.

You always seem to miss the point. The "complaint" is that labyrinth has driven away his fellow HC players. Please try to pay better attention.

I'm a HC only player - I love challenges, but I like not RIP'ing to 'cheese' mechanics even more. (using a % damage is really just an artificial threat - I loathe it to no end, to me it just means they gave up and could not figure out a way to balance it) Because I'm a HC player my characters die, I reroll - so for example this season I ripped at 82, 85 and 89 in the first few weeks. I have to run this lab over and over again - no choice, I hate it every time. I don't even want to reroll again knowing I have to do it again for my character to be viable.

What I hate even more is not having anyone to group up with.

Honestly, I can live with the lab the way it is, I don't think I SHOULD like everything the game throws at me. under normal circumstances I would not even complain about it at all, but for the fact that its hurting the game, its killing HC, its driving other players away. and to me, that IS actually terrible.

goetzjam, I used to really respect your opinions man, still do most of the time, but I really think your off with these 'pro-lab' defense. When do you stop playing HC? two seasons ago? somehow I think you might see things differently if that was not the case. maybe not...

GGG can do whatever they want, I don't expect them to listen to me or anyone else, but if the next HC season is like this one (ded after 1 month) it will be time to move on for me. I would really prefer to have a reason to stay and keep supporting this game instead.

I played in perandus league, so just 1 league ago (could have been obvious if you checked my characters, then checked to see if I had HC characters ascended). I played prophecy league this time around for many reasons, which are more suited to a PM then a massive list here.

So I played HC with the lab, just not the uber lab.


Historically speaking I think quite a lot of people quit after both the 1 month and 2 month marks, especially now, moreso then ever because its actually quite quick to complete a build and pushing to 100 is now even more of a grind.


The "fact" is many factors come into play that hurt the game, first and foremost it is the spreading of misinformation and the blatant disregard for considering all factors or considering the lab itself might be a factor, but a much smaller one then you or others are willing to admit.



What cracks me up more then anything though is that you can avoid the traps. Like if you aren't willing to build for the challenge or make adjustments, avoid the traps. It isn't a hard concept. Do you guys not avoid bearers or try to move out of the way for volatile monsters? Sure those don't do % damage, but they both can kill you with improper positioning or movement mistakes, just like the lab.

I feel like most of the people to ever complain about the lab go into the lab thinking its worst then it is, either they have a friend that dislikes it, they were beaten as a child if they couldn't complete frogger (Kappa) or overall don't wish for any challenge they can't just M1+M2 thru.



I'd like to see people post more importantly as to why the % damage scares away people from hardcore or why the list below isn't true. Most of these post are irrelevant to that.


1) Traps are avoidable
a) No one has posted a series of traps that is "impossible" to navigate without taking damage. Personally I ran the uber lab many times and while I did take damage, if I was going to play not to, I very well could.

2) While not all defenses work, some do. Basalt flask, which you want for izzaro anyway. Instant pots or life pots in general.

3) Movement skills or speed. You naturally will take less damage if you are in the traps for less.


I've seen people die while getting carried, but I've never died to traps. Ever, I don't understand how people do. I guess panic, running with various sets of traps?


Some people do nothing differently to do the lab, considering its a specific set of challenge(s) why wouldn't you make some minor adjustments to ensure your survival, especially in HC?

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Zrevnur wrote:

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mark1030 wrote:

Firstly, you ignore that 5 times as many players play psc as phc.

I assumed people arguing here knew this number. You do. So this assumption was not far off I guess?

Not everybody reads announcement posts and may not know that. So using absolute numbers like 45 and 581 without qualifying that those numbers are weighted is misleading (even if unintentional).

"

"

mark1030 wrote:

And as has been stated before, there are other changes between the last time they gave numbers and this time that surely also affect the hardcore population. So while the lab is probably a factor, how big of a factor is unknown.

I fully agree with you here. In no way do I claim to know that lab is the only (or even most dominating) reason for HC people to leave - assuming this is even the case. However: The numbers do support such claims. "Support" does not mean "proof".

Ok, I understand what you're saying now.

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Entropic_Fire wrote:

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Pyrokar wrote:

It's common knowledge that lab is universally hated by hc players. If me saying this and the possible reasons provided in this and other threads aren't proof enough, feel free to join a hardcore league and see for yourselves.

Please speak for yourself and not for hardcore players in general, especially when you have evidence to the contrary from multiple people in this thread already.

Right. Speaking for myself then, i saw universal hatred from the hardcore players towards the labyrinth in the first three weeks of hardcore prophecy and then i saw a dead league. It wasn't hard for me to make the correlation. I even made a post about it three weeks in the league, when it died, and i can link it as a reference.

Does this work better for you?

.

Nope, i didn't put words in anyone's mouths. It's what i observed. Or are you telling me that you saw something different?

Anyway, i think that you are hanging on the word universal. What i meant is that no one had any good words to say about the lab, whenever that topic came up and people were literally begging for lab rushes. Not asking, begging.

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Entropic_Fire wrote:

You saw universal hatred and a dead league and here I am still playing that league with tons of other people who apparently didn't have any problem with the lab.

Not directly related to your current discussion with "Pyrokar" but:
Given the "tons of other people" who are still playing PHC and dont have a problem with the lab: Then why are there only so few actually doing it? It is more rewarding than anything else in the game. 56 pps have done PHC uber lab today.

Just from the only numbers released ( 20.5% of the players played Nemesis and 13.10% of the players played the current league), that's a 36% drop in players. If a third of the players changes a league from alive to dead, I guess you're right. The 64% still playing would disagree. And that's without even talking about all the possible reasons for the decline.