Change % damage from traps to flat damage in lab already.

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sucemab wrote:

They already don't care about defenses regarding traps since they don't work in current state. Which is one of the reason people are criticizing trap mechanics.

I believe that they do work, some builds are cheesing them tho, that might need some work on this yeah.

Most of the people bitching about traps that I have seen in this section so far don't seem to like it because they just want to kill monsters, they don't want think play with timers, and they don't like that they cannot overgear it.

Is your point of view different from those people ?

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Fruz wrote:

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sucemab wrote:

They already don't care about defenses regarding traps since they don't work in current state. Which is one of the reason people are criticizing trap mechanics.

I believe that they do work, some builds are cheesing them tho, that might need some work on this yeah.

Most of the people bitching about traps that I have seen in this section so far don't seem to like it because they just want to kill monsters, they don't want think play with timers, and they don't like that they cannot overgear it.

Is your point of view different from those people ?

I prefer killing mobs but after many reads on forums I understand some people are loving traps. I think their mechanics can be reworked as they may be unfair for some builds and trivial for others. I think it can be improved. Changing doesn't necessarily mean nerfing.

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Fruz wrote:

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sucemab wrote:

Wasn't assuming that mitigation will work in this example. But anyway how spinning spike thing doing less damage to a character that has less life is making more sense than being able to dodge it ?

We could see life as the endurance of the character, how much damage one can take before dying/passing out.
A sawblade will destroy weak bodies as much as tough ones, making no difference, this is the point I think.

Which obviously does in no way explain why adding energy shield on equipment is harmful. Nor why having more life is bad vs traps which do physical hits - due to armour having a weaker effect on the hit. The current system simply "makes no sense" due to such inconsistencies with the normal rule set.

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Fruz wrote:

and they don't like that they cannot overgear it.

But they can be overgeared - maybe not for all builds/classes - but for some at least. Just read some comments from Juggernaut lab runners. They have to try hard to actually take damage from traps. And this is not restricted to Juggernaut class. They just have it easier to get there.
Try 2x Kaoms Way + Leo craft on high armour Shield + Kintsugi (or Restless Ward) + Endurance charge on belt + unique boots with anti-bleed + Stone Golem + Vitality + Enfeeble/Blasphemy (for monsters). If your build got already some life regen and/or endurance charges this will make it very easy. You just have to do it for the lab/trials only. Which is a pretty big hassle. Especially with the trials spread out. Thats one of the reasons why some people dislike it: Its an unfun mechanic with a separate set of rules which is contradicting the usual rules.

I think that Energy shield's explanation differ from one person to another lol, that one is I feel really open to interpretation.

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sucemab wrote:

I prefer killing mobs but after many reads on forums I understand some people are loving traps. I think their mechanics can be reworked as they may be unfair for some builds and trivial for others. I think it can be improved. Changing doesn't necessarily mean nerfing.

I am not sure if some really "love" traps to be honest, but I personally like the lab overall.
Except for builds that can cheese it ( not a good thing ), it is not trivial.
I think that the juggernaut needs some tuning tho, having all the defensive mechanics or almost pile up on one ascendancy class is ridiculous.

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Zrevnur wrote:

But they can be overgeared - maybe not for all builds/classes - but for some at least. Just read some comments from Juggernaut lab runners. They have to try hard to actually take damage from traps. And this is not restricted to Juggernaut class. They just have it easier to get there.
Try 2x Kaoms Way + Leo craft on high armour Shield + Kintsugi (or Restless Ward) + Endurance charge on belt + unique boots with anti-bleed + Stone Golem + Vitality + Enfeeble/Blasphemy (for monsters). If your build got already some life regen and/or endurance charges this will make it very easy. You just have to do it for the lab/trials only. Which is a pretty big hassle. Especially with the trials spread out. Thats one of the reasons why some people dislike it: Its an unfun mechanic with a separate set of rules which is contradicting the usual rules.

You mean it's unfair that people stacking all the defense in the game have it a little easier ?
I do not, plus Uber lab can nulify Kintsugi, and makes you need to cap ele resistances which can become hard with so many uniques.
Those are bonuses tho, no need if you know what you are doing.
Now should the trap bypass some of those defense ? sure, that could work I guess, people would QQ even more tho.

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Fruz wrote:

You mean it's unfair that people stacking all the defense in the game have it a little easier ?

I am just saying that overgearing is possible for a good number of builds. I did not mean to attach a "fair", "unfair" or whatever. And if you really "overgear" like I described while having a build which already got good endurance charges + regen on the tree then traps become mostly harmless. Its not just "a little easier", it becomes really easy even for people with no hip hop skills.

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Fruz wrote:

and makes you need to cap ele resistances which can become hard with so many uniques.

4 uniques which leaves 6 slots + jewels + passives: Not a problem.

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Prebornfetus wrote:

64.29% (36 of 56) of uber lab runners (today only) are Juggernauts. Seen this earlier. That is telling isnt it?

Yes, it's telling. But you're not listening to what it's telling you. All that's saying is 64.29% of uber lab runners built the best character to run the lab. They were build for the task. Not built because they wanted to do the task once. But built because they wanted to do the task many times. Look back at the ladders. If the same names are on the list day after day, they are lab runners. Not just characters that wanted the ascendency points. Just like if you wanted a build to farm Uber Atziri. You would choose the best build for that task. And if you wanted to make a dedicated magic find culler back when people were making those. How many of them were melee characters? Like none because they were bad at the purpose of the build.

So quit saying that juggernauts mean anything other than they are the best lab runners. They are just the best at it and if you plan on doing it a lot you want the build that's best at it. And there are several reasons to want a lab runner. To farm it for loot, to farm it for enchants, to win the daily prize for being the fastest, and to carry people are all reasons you would want the best character to repeatedly run the lab.

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Zrevnur wrote:

I am just saying that overgearing is possible for a good number of builds. I did not mean to attach a "fair", "unfair" or whatever. And if you really "overgear" like I described while having a build which already got good endurance charges + regen on the tree then traps become mostly harmless. Its not just "a little easier", it becomes really easy even for people with no hip hop skills.

Maybe I'm underestimating all of those stacks together, if you have a show case of this I'd be curious to see it.

About ele resistances easy to cap, most builds use other uniques too, and have other needs, if you have a lot of currency of course it's doable, but it can cost quite a bit.

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Fruz wrote:

Maybe I'm underestimating all of those stacks together, if you have a show case of this I'd be curious to see it.

Not sure what exactly you mean with showcase. The proposed setup is based on theorycrafting and personal experience with running through traps with such tools and without such tools. In my lab setup I have 6x endurance charges, including 1x Kaoms Way. Traps usually do only dangerous damage when I run out of charges and dont have a basalt up. There are only 2 situations which are still significantly dangerous with such a setup:
1) Multiple high damage (spinning blades mostly) traps hit you at once for a prolonged duration. This can be avoided relatively easily by knowing the danger.
2) Not tested but the "increased damage taken" sentinels probably need to be killed still.
Even with my limited setup (due to playing SSF I dont have access to all pieces) the difference between using such a setup and not doing so is huge.

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Fruz wrote:

About ele resistances easy to cap, most builds use other uniques too, and have other needs, if you have a lot of currency of course it's doable, but it can cost quite a bit.

What I meant is: You can use a different equipment setup just for running through the lab. If you are willing to do that then for many builds it is possible to overgear to the point that traps become trivial. And it is easy to cap resists when doing so. In no way do I say that this is actually compatible (as in they can retain proper DPS etc) with many builds not specifically made for labrunning. This also means you may have to go through the hassle of switching equipment for the Izaro fight. One of my anti-lab points is exactly this: Its a "hassle" to go through that. Its not particulary difficult. Just unfun. And the inherent reason behind that is the different rule set of the trap damages vs the normal rule set of the monster damages. And BTW: I am actually doing exactly this: I have a different setup for the lab and trials. And I switch setup before and after (for uber only, Merciless dont require it) Izaro.

Well I meant a video were we can see such a "perfect" setup.

So basically, you mean that a character setup to do the lab has it much easier, but can still find dangerous situations ? Like, you still have to avoid traps to an extent with flasks up and much more with flasks down ? Still seems like something that can be dangerous to me, so not completely overgeared.

So basically, you have an almost "cheesing-setup" that you need to change against Izaro ?
You could have a more standard setup to to the lab and kill Izaro I'm sure, or at least have a very limited required switch for it.

I would honestly like ( I haven't tested uber yet, I feel that the char will be ready soon, I don't want to rush it, so this is regarding merc lab ) the normal monsters in the lab to do more damage, so that the traps and Izaro are not the only dangerous things.

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Fruz wrote:

Well I meant a video were we can see such a "perfect" setup.

Video: I dont have one. I dont watch them myself so I cant point to one either. But simply doing a search for Juggernaut + trap + labyrinth or something similar will probably get you something.

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Fruz wrote:

So basically, you mean that a character setup to do the lab has it much easier, but can still find dangerous situations ? Like, you still have to avoid traps to an extent with flasks up and much more with flasks down ? Still seems like something that can be dangerous to me, so not completely overgeared.

So basically, you have an almost "cheesing-setup" that you need to change against Izaro ?

I still have to avoid traps etc. I am not "overgeared". And yes in PoE you can always die to bad luck or mistakes. Just think Voidspawn + Tormented or Bearers. In this sense you cannot "overgear". But you can "overgear" in the sense that it trivializes the challenge a normal run poses. It does not mean you can safely play with 100% survival while being drunk and watching TV.

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Fruz wrote:

You could have a more standard setup to to the lab and kill Izaro I'm sure, or at least have a very limited required switch for it.

You are right. Its just not worth the risk in HC. I dont want to do hundreds of runs. Maybe a few dozens. If I would want to do hundreds I would make a build suitable for the job. Mine is not overly good at it. Its also conceptually easier to have 2 completely different setups as I can then make changes affecting resistances in one of the setups independently.
I accidentally went into the Izaro fight once with the lab setup including GMP etc. So very low DPS. It was fonts phase. Managed to beat it but is was pretty rough. Usually I would just kill the fonts quickly when they pop up and then facetank Izaro. Low risk and low requirement for playing skills. Also large margin for mistakes or bad luck. Izaro sometimes does crazy spike damages so I like to have that large margin.

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Fruz wrote:

I would honestly like ( I haven't tested uber yet, I feel that the char will be ready soon, I don't want to rush it, so this is regarding merc lab ) the normal monsters in the lab to do more damage, so that the traps and Izaro are not the only dangerous things.

Agree. Challenge should be more balanced between monsters and traps.
Uber lab is "all the same" in that. Blasphemy + Enfeeble + some Evasion + Armour shield (which I need vs traps anyway): Monsters are easy.