Haven't really ever commented on lab, but I hate it.

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catalinc wrote:

They already did when they launched Prophecy.

Read the 2.3.0 patch notes:

Due to the power creep from Ascendancy, Cruel, Merciless and Map content requires various rebalances. Rather than apply arbitrary buffs to life and damage, we have instead added monsters with new skills to higher difficulties, and have applied various corrections to specific monster skills.

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Turtledove wrote:

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catalinc wrote:

I think ascendancy points are part of the core game even if they dont seem to meet tin_foil_hat's criteria.

The moment GGG increased difficulty because of ascendancy is the moment when they became part of the core game.

They were made a core part of the game immediately after they became available. This is what Chris Wilson has said. The reason is simple. PoE is an RPG where the core of the game is building characters. Any change in that area is a change to the core part of the game. They are no more optional than is using all of your passive skill points. Trying to argue that they are optional because you can complete all the content without them is no more relevant/meaningful than saying that using unique or rare helmets is optional. While it may be true, it is not relevant or meaningful. From that point of view practically everything in the game is optional.

The moment when GGG increases the difficulty of the game because of ascendancy is the moment that they become more critical, just like using rare or unique helmets becomes more critical.

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HarukaTeno wrote:

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catalinc wrote:

I think ascendancy points are part of the core game even if they dont seem to meet tin_foil_hat's criteria.

The moment GGG increased difficulty because of ascendancy is the moment when they became part of the core game.

I've already asked the same question in another thread (after reading the same things about "shit was specifically changed because of the asc.classes); and, no wonder, there was no answers. ^_^
So.

What exactly was "changed because of the ASC. implementing"? Who? Where?
PLEASE, post a quote from patch-note(s) which says something like:
"you can't now kill Dominus\Maligaro\T15 map boss without previously intimidating him with the help of the "First to Strike - Last to Fall" Champion ascendancy passive"
or anything similar.

Power creep is power creep, which is inevitable.

BUT, note, they said "rather than apply arbitrary buffs to life and damage, we have instead added monsters with new skills". It's just the monsters which were added.

I don't see any "we buffed ALL monster's HP & damage by 400%, FY" lines.

And it still does not require you to play a specific ascendancy class (or any asc.class) to kill those "new" monsters (mere monsters, unique enemies and bosses weren't touched) or simply progress in game.
Most people even run norm.laby. after they start running maps. Which means what? Yeah, that you still can play without ascending "level-to-level" 3 times in every difficulty, i.e. "it's not that necessary".

P.S.

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miljan wrote:

It was multiple times stated by GGG that ascendancy points are core part of the game, and that they will be balancing the game around you having them (as it already started with this league).

"Balancing the game with asc.skills in mind" and "requiring specific asc.passive to kill boss X" are two very different things.

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Tin_Foil_Hat wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

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catalinc wrote:

I think ascendancy points are part of the core game even if they dont seem to meet tin_foil_hat's criteria.

The moment GGG increased difficulty because of ascendancy is the moment when they became part of the core game.

They were made a core part of the game immediately after they became available. This is what Chris Wilson has said. The reason is simple. PoE is an RPG where the core of the game is building characters. Any change in that area is a change to the core part of the game. They are no more optional than is using all of your passive skill points. Trying to argue that they are optional because you can complete all the content without them is no more relevant/meaningful than saying that using unique or rare helmets is optional. While it may be true, it is not relevant or meaningful. From that point of view practically everything in the game is optional.

The moment when GGG increases the difficulty of the game because of ascendancy is the moment that they become more critical, just like using rare or unique helmets becomes more critical.

No, they arent.

I fucking love how you kids keep saying the same thing without giving a source (its no surprise though because Chris never said that and you keep shoving words into chris' mouth to try and prove your horrible arguments).

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Tin_Foil_Hat wrote:

Oh look he took it out of context and its the exact same thing i debunked in your last thread.

"The correct lab experience is the proper length. We worry that proving a shorter one will lose all the cool stuff that affect the later stage of the labyrinth. Having said that, the team is aware of the fact that, doing the labyrinth 3 times is a bit of a chore. If this was entirely side content with just the enchantments, it would be a thing where if you dont want to do it you dont have to do it like Atziri, but we have put Ascendancy classes in there".

Hes talking about labyrinth as an entity hes not talking about specifically Ascendancy points being CORE GAME ELEMENTS THAT ARE REQUIRED TO PLAY THE GAME AT ALL. Youre trying to use a cherry picked contextual portion of what he said and using semantics as an argument.

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Turtledove wrote:

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Tin_Foil_Hat wrote:

Oh look he took it out of context and its the exact same thing i debunked in your last thread.

"The correct lab experience is the proper length. We worry that proving a shorter one will lose all the cool stuff that affect the later stage of the labyrinth. Having said that, the team is aware of the fact that, doing the labyrinth 3 times is a bit of a chore. If this was entirely side content with just the enchantments, it would be a thing where if you dont want to do it you dont have to do it like Atziri, but we have put Ascendancy classes in there".

Hes talking about labyrinth as an entity hes not talking about specifically Ascendancy points being CORE GAME ELEMENTS THAT ARE REQUIRED TO PLAY THE GAME AT ALL. Youre trying to use a cherry picked contextual portion of what he said and using semantics as an argument.

Sorry Tin_Foil_Hat, it appears that you missed the relevant portion. Chris says that labyrinth would be entirely optional like Atziri, except they put ascendancy classes in there.

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Tin_Foil_Hat wrote:

The new monsters with new skills do literally nothing because they die instantly like everything else, nice try though lmao.

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ShaUrley wrote:

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Tin_Foil_Hat wrote:

The new monsters with new skills do literally nothing because they die instantly like everything else, nice try though lmao.

I dare say that's true if you happen to have great gear. But I lost a lvl 58 witch to cruel Triskeriaki in Kaom's path (after foolishly mashing my skill keys instead of my potion keys). He definitely seemed worse than before. And, having got another witch and a ranger to merciless Lunaris at this point, that area also feels significantly more dangerous than it used to be -- my poor ranger has resorted to using a decoy totem for protection. Of course, if she happened to have an uber-bow, she'd be instantly slaughtering everything in sight.

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ShaUrley wrote:

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Tin_Foil_Hat wrote:

The new monsters with new skills do literally nothing because they die instantly like everything else, nice try though lmao.

I dare say that's true if you happen to have great gear. But I lost a lvl 58 witch to cruel Triskeriaki in Kaom's path (after foolishly mashing my skill keys instead of my potion keys). He definitely seemed worse than before. And, having got another witch and a ranger to merciless Lunaris at this point, that area also feels significantly more dangerous than it used to be -- my poor ranger has resorted to using a decoy totem for protection. Of course, if she happened to have an uber-bow, she'd be instantly slaughtering everything in sight.