Is this what an action RPG should look like?

Some good points scrotie. However, framing it with "this is the problem cause most people see it that way" is what threw me.

It very much is an ARPG. I don't think any one person can decide what is or what isn't. What do these categories mean anyway other than a point of reference to new players wondering what the game is like?

E: FWIW I watch movies while I play PoE and usually smoke AND drink. I wouldn't have it any other way. That's a part of ARPGs ive loved since D1. They are much more passive than playing say a shooter. ( I still crushed the Lab, so im not saying it needs nerfing seemed just right to me)

"

Ocylix wrote:

"

Assfinder wrote:

Spam nation rejoice! Whirling blades + crit + life to the rescue! (again)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4t46Rilb34

even faster

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6JGT9NTTAQ

even with these speed runners (which is the reason for the daily lab ladder), Scrotie's point still stands: positioning is key

TIL ignoring traps/face tanking boss = positioning

"

GeorgAnatoly wrote:

1-3

- 1 - They gated ascendancy points behind the lab. This is bad because ascendancy points are low level rewards which affects basic character progression. This itself produces three problems;

- 1a -The points themselves don't have a large impact. Them being a lower level reward means they act on higher level rewards, namely items, to have an impact. And no this is not what defines them as optional or not.

- 1b - Players expect to freely have access to low level rewards that affect their ability to gain higher level rewards which makes the player feel like the effort required does not match the reward given when considering the ascendancy points. Which brings us to our third issue regarding this.

- 1c - The points being low level rewards and putting those rewards behind the lab makes the lab feel non-optional. This takes away choice in play style and exacerbates any discontentment produced if players don't find the lab fun and would have otherwise not choosen to play it.

- 2 - With the ascendancy points being lower level you can expect every character would want to have access to them which produces our second problem. To some extent the lab had to be designed in terms of balance with that expectation in mind. They had to keep the players in mind who only wanted to rush throw it 2 or 3 times just to get their points. Which brings us to our third problem.

- 3 - It was split across all three difficulties. They had to cater to the people who just wanted to run the thing for their normal/cruel points but this produces a problem in that it puts it in limbo between mandatory and optional content. Now it's lost its meaning and it simply becomes a chore to get through just so you can get your points and continue playing the character. This reduces the quality of play one will have for each later difficulty and breezing through normal will set up expectations of difficulty for cruel and merc that could further make the experience less fun.

For the same of simplicity, I'm just going to say that I disagree with all of this. Maybe I could find some truth in a clause or two, but it's a whole lot of wrong.

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GeorgAnatoly wrote:

- 4 - It's not random. You can easily get a map that tells you exactly what to do and skip over any difficulty assuming you can defeat the boss. Why on earth make it a labyrinth at all then? It's completely self defeating and honestly baffling they did this.

The answer to your implied question is daily leaderboards.

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GeorgAnatoly wrote:

- 5 - The trials. They lose their purpose almost immediately. And simply become yet another chore that reduces the quality of play over time.

Agree here. Lab's a Good Thing™. Trials? Not so much.

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GeorgAnatoly wrote:

How to fix the lab then?

- 1 - Remove ascendancy points from lab. Now you don't have to cater to casuals who just want to get through it for the points. Now it becomes purely optional and people don't feel forced to play it if they otherwise wouldn't have.

- 2 - Remove it from normal and cruel so it becomes endgame only. Now the lack of checkpoints, difficulty of traps and boss starts to make sense. Now we also understand this to be a challenging alternative endgame to maps.

- 3 - Make it random. Remove the ability to go online and get a map to breeze through it.

Ideas to fix that which isn't broken, which would break things if attempted. Strongly disagree with all.

Well, *maybe* random Lab if character hasn't Ascended yet. But if they have, nonrandom for daily leaderboards.

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GeorgAnatoly wrote:

- 4 - Trials. They are fine as they are but make them more important to the process. Something along the lines of after completing the trials the player is rewarded with some random buff that gets applied during the next time they tackle the lab. Examples: Movement speed buff, quad light radius, increased damage against boss - w/e there are tons of possibilities.

The biggest problem with the Trials is that they are tutorials you have to complete three times instead of just once. Your suggestion doesn't fix this, it just benefits those who deal with the brokenness. Like seeing a car broken down by the side of the road with a flat tire, and "fixing" the situation by giving the stranded driver a cold beverage and a delicious cookie, then driving off.

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mark1030 wrote:

Whenever I see a thread about RPGs, I open it expecting to see video of a Rocket Propelled Grenade blowing something up. So disappointed.

This ones for you Mark!!



BOOM!!

FeelsBetterMan? :) :) :)

No, like every other white knight out there you are wrong. The lab is easy. It's just another tedious addition to an already tedious levelling experience. Make it optional and it will be great. I will never set foot in it again. Because it's not at all what i play this game for.

PoE gives you all the tools to be lazy, and some of the best builds are. "Cast on x" skills exist, automate your ability to recover from harm, bolster your damage, and make the game easier.

The big thing is, you have to plan all this. The laziest builds had at least a little bit of breakthrough with how the game works and how you can make that build work. If the builders and the players like to play the game this way, all the power to them. Ease of use goes hand in hand with ease of play.


If you want to see almost the exact opposite of this consensus of play, look up "Phantasy Star Online 2." The metagame over thattaway is the polar opposite: Everyone is a glass cannon, and tanking is strongly frowned upon because 'the best defense is a dead enemy'. If you're tanking, you aren't contributing. The reason being, there is a button you can press to dodge attacks. Focus is far less around making a creative build, and more about bolstering how much damage you do.

Either way though, it's an abuse of the game itself and how it works. You can't stop players from doing this without changing the game, and possibly removing the reason they play at all.


I agree with the consensus of the labyrinth bypassing this. I lost a beefcake tank in HC just the other night, and I wasn't even mad -- a trap got me, and it was my own fault. It wasn't a fault of my build, my gear, or the labyrinth itself, it was the fault of how I played the game.

And I think that's a little more liberating than just saying "my build didn't work" or "the labyrinth sucks." Being able to say "it was my fault I died." And on that front, I agree it would be nice to see more content like this, where how you play is tested and your build itself doesn't matter.

Of course, Izaro himself sort of kicks this idea to the curb by his own stats simply wrecking your build. His fight has a little bit of dynamic to how you fight him, but still falls back on arpg logic, since he is a boss in an arpg.

I don't think there's a realistic way around this. It would be neat if there were a broader number of ways to screw Izaro over in the labyrinth itself, like devices to apply a permanent curse to him or aura to you. Things that can be bypassed by arpg logic, but abused by non-arpg logic to follow the similar consensus of "your build doesn't matter" as the rest of the labyrinth trys to.

But outside the labyrinth, embracing and abusing the arpg logic is the only way to play. It isn't necessarily a bad thing, but like I said, some of the best builds are the laziest. If you don't like those builds... Don't play those builds?

"

AmityXIII wrote:

"

mark1030 wrote:

Whenever I see a thread about RPGs, I open it expecting to see video of a Rocket Propelled Grenade blowing something up. So disappointed.

This ones for you Mark!!

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CedQ9EsVU6s

BOOM!!

FeelsBetterMan? :) :) :)

Lol, thanks!

Power fantasy is the heart of ARPGs, man.

But even with that, Malachai and Labryinths are enjoyable to me, because they add more dimensions to the experience while still allowing me to continue my quest to acquire enough power to roflstomp everything.

"

This mentality is a cancer upon action role-playing games.

Why is there so much Labyrinth QQ? This is why: Positioning matters, and no amount of spam will ever kill a trap. The path is not linear but requires navigation. The boss requires you to actually pay attention and do specific things during the fight, or he comes back stronger.

The Labyrinth is the most anti-spam, anti-facetank, pro-positioning, pro-thinking content GGG has ever released. So Spam Nation despises it.

Good.

I hope you all you one-handed Netflix-watching beverage holders never get your Ascendancy points. And to those who play PoE with both hands primed and full attention, I salute you; your enchantments are well earned.

Good day, sirs.

I will say it one time. One.

I want a ScrotieMCB supporter pack.

Get back to lab guys! Stop QQ ! This is all except a gated content / hard content for once ...

Spam nation, is that like a breakfast club parody?

Anyway, guess i take this shit for granted, so obligatory

"Duh"

The lab feedback is atrocious considering it's suppose to come from "gamers".

Did that "rise to the challenge" mentality die of somewhere in the early 90's?

/GetRektTryAgainGitGud

Peace,

-Boem-