Self-found vs Solo leagues

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MrTremere wrote:

phrazz, I believe that your posts are too aggressive.

I agree.

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MrTremere wrote:

I think you underestimate the effect of having a lot less players in the server. Even though you may not want to trade with other people, and I'll skip any worry about partying, there are issues that arise with this idea of self found league :
+ Chats in such a league would be very empty. This means no talking in global chat about whatever you want/need.
+ There wouldn't be many playing characters in town, which would suddenly feel empty.

This may not look like much, but the impression of a game with no one playing it tends to push players away from it.
If players would go self-found, I think it would be better to have them being able to do so in the usual leagues.

I think you underestimate the typical SF player. I play self found (99%). I often chat with friends/guild mates. I often debate builds, gear and so on. But you may have a point - but there are more than enough remaining players in standard to make every instance in every town feel "alive", evein with a SFL.

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eragon1111 wrote:

F2P model for solo experience has absolutely no sence. You HAVE TO watch and BE JELLY for anyone with microtransactions for F2P model to be sustainable.

Do you see any reason to buy anything if u cant interact with rest of the community? That seems silly, at least for me.


"Hey Joe i got new hat - look how awsome my new useless hat looks !! "
"Joe ???"
"Shit..."

F2P works fine in a solo/single player game as demonstrated by so many apps on phones that are single player. They tend to be P2W type MTX though (better drops, accelerated XP/Progression, more lives/turns, etc.).

The model that GGG has taken really does rely heavily on the multiplayer aspect and the vanity of showing off for your friends/strangers. This may not be the driver for everyone, but it is likely the lifeline of this model (IMHO).

The generosity of players would likely not keep this boat afloat.

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phrazz wrote:

1) "You can play SF as it is"

Of course you can. You can play naked if you want. You can play only with blue/magic items. But you CAN NOT play self found competitive. There is no way of comparing you to others with the same rule set, on a server (league) not designed for that rule set. This can be fixed in many ways, one of them? A SFL. Isn't that what different leagues are made for? Rule set? Comparing yourself to like minded people?

2) "A SFL would split the player base"

Well, yeah - but you (the trading player) wouldn't notice it, as the SF players doesn't participate (much) in the economy as is.

3) "You're just cry babies! You want it to rain T1 uniques"

Most stupid argument of all time, as even people missing two chromosomes knows that playing self found is way harder than trade to win.

Those three arguments is posted - and countered - in many ways in every single SFL thread.

The most solid argument AGAINST a SFL, is that there is A LOT of different views on how a SFL should look. There, I just won this discussion for you.

Edit: And your "flag" idea? I've proposed that idea several times, several years ago. But for that to be accurate, we need a reset of the league. And standard will never see an other reset.

^^^This is perfect


Even if I'm not planning on playing Self found (even in a dedicated league) I cant understand why people not interested in a league like that would care AND I cant understand why not give the pleasure to the people interested in that.

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Kuruguhn wrote:

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phrazz wrote:

1) "You can play SF as it is"

Of course you can. You can play naked if you want. You can play only with blue/magic items. But you CAN NOT play self found competitive. There is no way of comparing you to others with the same rule set, on a server (league) not designed for that rule set. This can be fixed in many ways, one of them? A SFL. Isn't that what different leagues are made for? Rule set? Comparing yourself to like minded people?

2) "A SFL would split the player base"

Well, yeah - but you (the trading player) wouldn't notice it, as the SF players doesn't participate (much) in the economy as is.

3) "You're just cry babies! You want it to rain T1 uniques"

Most stupid argument of all time, as even people missing two chromosomes knows that playing self found is way harder than trade to win.

Those three arguments is posted - and countered - in many ways in every single SFL thread.

The most solid argument AGAINST a SFL, is that there is A LOT of different views on how a SFL should look. There, I just won this discussion for you.

Edit: And your "flag" idea? I've proposed that idea several times, several years ago. But for that to be accurate, we need a reset of the league. And standard will never see an other reset.

^^^This is perfect


Even if I'm not planning on playing Self found (even in a dedicated league) I cant understand why people not interested in a league like that would care AND I cant understand why not give the pleasure to the people interested in that.

Because resources are limited and people don't want to see GGG spend resources creating 10 different styles of self found leagues, to cater to all the people who demand self found leagues, but with their own demands for changes in the game to accommodate them.

The OP is the first person i have seen ask for a SFL without any other fundamental changes to the game, which seems fine to me.

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DarkMantle wrote:

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HikaruYami wrote:

It sounds like you want to play Diablo 3 RoS.

Unless you really genuinely don't have any interest in better drop rates, and would rather just never have a chance to have a shav's, and would like a mirror drop to basically be a holographic first edition albino rhoa feather.

I discovered PoE because I hated Diablo 3 from day 1 =P

That's crucial: the self-found league, in my opinion, should have the exact same drop ratios of the standard/hardcore leagues. No more, no less. I don't want a "easy-to-find-items" league.

And another crucial part is: the standard/hardcore leagues wouldn't cease to exist. The self-found league would be just another league, for those who want to play it. For those who don't, just ignore and keep playing the league of your choice.

You do realize that RoS is completely different from D3 classic, yes?

Like... I still find the gameplay boring--in fact, even more boring now, but that's only because of lack of trading--but the original game was balanced around the Auction House, which no longer exists. Now anything worth shit is bind-on-pickup, thus making D3 RoS a self-found but not solo game whose "economy" or lack thereof is balanced around being self-found.

I mean, I guess it's... "good" that you want a self-found non-solo league without increased drop rates, since it proves you're not a self-entitled shit, but I think you're overestimating how many people would play it. It wouldn't be worth the time GGG would even spend to set it up for the whole, like, 10 people that would both join the league and also make it to maps.

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TikoXi wrote:

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DarkMantle wrote:

- No increased drop ratio - the ratio should be exactly the same of the standard league

While I mainly play (mostly) self found, and it's interesting to see the interaction with the forced-self-found league - it did stand to highlight something that I think every self-found player boldly knew and every trader knew deep down but didn't want to admit...

Spoiler

THIS GAME'S DROPS AND DROPRATES ARE FUCKING ABYSMAL!!@!!

...and while changing that in the main leagues recklessly could be catastrophic to game balance, in a selffound league there's absolutely no reason for those values to stay the same - I'd even go as far as to say it actively inhibits participation and aggravates people. There's just not enough ways to reliably get what you need if you don't get it naturally, and that is a problem in self-found leagues.

This is (slightly) changing with some of the act 4 info we've been teased, so who knows if that will stay the same, but specifically with regards to currency, there are more than a couple currency orbs that need their values tweaking as is - and a selffound league exacerbates those problems a thousand-fold.

Those issues MUST be addressed before a permanent self-found league or mode could even be considered.

perhaps thats why GGG ran this league, for the sole purpose of collecting data....?

Tinfoil hat?

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phrazz wrote:

Ok, I'll bite.

1) "You can play SF as it is"

Of course you can. You can play naked if you want. You can play only with blue/magic items. But you CAN NOT play self found competitive. There is no way of comparing you to others with the same rule set, on a server (league) not designed for that rule set. This can be fixed in many ways, one of them? A SFL. Isn't that what different leagues are made for? Rule set? Comparing yourself to like minded people?

2) "A SFL would split the player base"

Well, yeah - but you (the trading player) wouldn't notice it, as the SF players doesn't participate (much) in the economy as is.

3) "You're just cry babies! You want it to rain T1 uniques"

Most stupid argument of all time, as even people missing two chromosomes knows that playing self found is way harder than trade to win.

Those three arguments is posted - and countered - in many ways in every single SFL thread.

The most solid argument AGAINST a SFL, is that there is A LOT of different views on how a SFL should look. There, I just won this discussion for you.

Edit: And your "flag" idea? I've proposed that idea several times, several years ago. But for that to be accurate, we need a reset of the league. And standard will never see an other reset.

1. "You can play SF as it is"

I believe an SFL is the most costly of solutions to the problem. Another league with a different set of servers and a new set of things to break with every change is not something that should be taken lightly. GGG gets hammered daily on GD for their QA process, in spite of their rate of release being nearly unheard of. Additional baselines that they support will slow their release cycle (they have to test against all baselines) while appearing to do nothing extra will be handled poorly by this community. The reason for leagues is multiple but differences in play style does not have to be one of them. For instance, in a meta where ranged tends to be more safe than melee should they be separated into different leagues? What about Duelist versus Witch? The separate leagues IMO is only necessitated by an absolute need. Temporary leagues need a new economy and a reset ladder. Hardcore and Softcore provide a separate economy. Where the line between accommodated through separate leagues or internal to a league with tweaks is subjective. Only GGG can say where that line should be for POE.

2. "A SFL would split the player base"

Don't discount the feeling of 'dead' when channels are not active or towns are empty. If the league were a solo/self-found then there would be no need even for a noticeboard. The specific implementation that GGG would pick has a high chance of alienating the exact base it is catering too (See Below). If they went with the implementation in this thread, it might cause some solo gamers who desire a ladder free of those that "cheat by using groups". I'm not sure the excitement to go into drought drop rates all the time will be as large as those on the forum believe it will be (See Below). 99% self-found is not self-found (otherwise I'm self-found).

3) "You're just cry babies! You want it to rain T1 uniques"

This is absolutely a part of the group advocating for SFL. I wouldn't use the word cry baby, but they do want drops. They are more a part of the crowd that D3 catered too -- full set of awesome within weeks so that they can move on to their next conquest (new game). Is this everyone? No. But a league like this that does not include drop rate increases may alienate this crowd too.

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phrazz wrote:

The most solid argument AGAINST a SFL, is that there is A LOT of different views on how a SFL should look. There, I just won this discussion for you.

This is a good reason to avoid it for GGG, but I truly believe it is not the best argument. The business driven decision making is easily the strongest argument for me. As much as everyone hates to admit it, the "Why not" argument is the basis for so many arguments in these threads. Think about the statements being made: they all distill down to "Why not". That is a terrible reason to do something in business. For all intents and purposes, self found is available as an option today -- it just exists without a ladder. I believe existing leagues can provide a fresh ladder and meet that requirement as well with minor tweaks that can be used in all future leagues. The cost would be minimal and would not require a separate set of services or production code. From that, GGG could actually gather empirical data that could be applied against whether a SFL makes good business sense.

If nothing else, please hear this: Burden of Proof is with the SFL crowd, and "why not" is not a good reason.

pretty sure that GGG has stated that a perm SFL is not going to be a thing

I couldn't get past the 2nd use of 'anti-social'.

Look up that term, TC.
Edit your OP, then maybe it will be worth the read.