Self-found vs Solo leagues

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k1rage wrote:

pretty sure that GGG has stated that a perm SFL is not going to be a thing

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Nubatron wrote:

1. "You can play SF as it is"

I believe an SFL is the most costly of solutions to the problem. Another league with a different set of servers and a new set of things to break with every change is not something that should be taken lightly. GGG gets hammered daily on GD for their QA process, in spite of their rate of release being nearly unheard of. Additional baselines that they support will slow their release cycle (they have to test against all baselines) while appearing to do nothing extra will be handled poorly by this community. The reason for leagues is multiple but differences in play style does not have to be one of them. For instance, in a meta where ranged tends to be more safe than melee should they be separated into different leagues? What about Duelist versus Witch? The separate leagues IMO is only necessitated by an absolute need. Temporary leagues need a new economy and a reset ladder. Hardcore and Softcore provide a separate economy. Where the line between accommodated through separate leagues or internal to a league with tweaks is subjective. Only GGG can say where that line should be for POE.

2. "A SFL would split the player base"

Don't discount the feeling of 'dead' when channels are not active or towns are empty. If the league were a solo/self-found then there would be no need even for a noticeboard. The specific implementation that GGG would pick has a high chance of alienating the exact base it is catering too (See Below). If they went with the implementation in this thread, it might cause some solo gamers who desire a ladder free of those that "cheat by using groups". I'm not sure the excitement to go into drought drop rates all the time will be as large as those on the forum believe it will be (See Below). 99% self-found is not self-found (otherwise I'm self-found).

3) "You're just cry babies! You want it to rain T1 uniques"

This is absolutely a part of the group advocating for SFL. I wouldn't use the word cry baby, but they do want drops. They are more a part of the crowd that D3 catered too -- full set of awesome within weeks so that they can move on to their next conquest (new game). Is this everyone? No. But a league like this that does not include drop rate increases may alienate this crowd too.

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phrazz wrote:

The most solid argument AGAINST a SFL, is that there is A LOT of different views on how a SFL should look. There, I just won this discussion for you.

This is a good reason to avoid it for GGG, but I truly believe it is not the best argument. The business driven decision making is easily the strongest argument for me. As much as everyone hates to admit it, the "Why not" argument is the basis for so many arguments in these threads. Think about the statements being made: they all distill down to "Why not". That is a terrible reason to do something in business. For all intents and purposes, self found is available as an option today -- it just exists without a ladder. I believe existing leagues can provide a fresh ladder and meet that requirement as well with minor tweaks that can be used in all future leagues. The cost would be minimal and would not require a separate set of services or production code. From that, GGG could actually gather empirical data that could be applied against whether a SFL makes good business sense.

If nothing else, please hear this: Burden of Proof is with the SFL crowd, and "why not" is not a good reason.

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TheAnuhart wrote:

I couldn't get past the 2nd use of 'anti-social'.

Look up that term, TC.
Edit your OP, then maybe it will be worth the read.

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Nubatron wrote:

This is absolutely a part of the group advocating for SFL. I wouldn't use the word cry baby, but they do want drops. They are more a part of the crowd that D3 catered too -- full set of awesome within weeks so that they can move on to their next conquest (new game). Is this everyone? No. But a league like this that does not include drop rate increases may alienate this crowd too.

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Nubatron wrote:

If nothing else, please hear this: Burden of Proof is with the SFL crowd, and "why not" is not a good reason.

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DarkMantle wrote:

I posted in another answer, but I'll make it clear here: in the light of the "self-found but not alone" idea, you only use what you drop, and only party with people which are playing that way too. That's the problem - without a dedicated league to that, it is impossible to make sure your party/guild members are truly self-found players.

You can, of course, play solo self-found without any problem in standard, but that's the whole point of this thread: to make clear that some players think that solo and self-found are not the same thing.

About the "why not" argument, I agree that only saying "why not" is not good enough. I feel, and that's my feeling based on my point of view and my opinion, that I'm not alone wanting that kind of league in the game, and because of that this new type of gameplay could be interesting.

Talking about the economic point of view, I know some friends who don't like to spent time in the trade chat or trade forums (like me), and currently they are not playing the game anymore, and thus not spending a coin nor divulgating the game. They would return for a self-found league? That's speculation, but I think they would.

Of course I alone don't represent the majority of players. Actually, the only thing I can truly represent is my own point of view. But with more and more players supporting the idea, maybe we can make a louder sound that can be heard by the developers ;-)

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DarkMantle wrote:

I posted in another answer, but I'll make it clear here: in the light of the "self-found but not alone" idea, you only use what you drop, and only party with people which are playing that way too. That's the problem - without a dedicated league to that, it is impossible to make sure your party/guild members are truly self-found players.

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k1rage wrote:

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TikoXi wrote:

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DarkMantle wrote:

- No increased drop ratio - the ratio should be exactly the same of the standard league

While I mainly play (mostly) self found, and it's interesting to see the interaction with the forced-self-found league - it did stand to highlight something that I think every self-found player boldly knew and every trader knew deep down but didn't want to admit...

Spoiler

THIS GAME'S DROPS AND DROPRATES ARE FUCKING ABYSMAL!!@!!

...and while changing that in the main leagues recklessly could be catastrophic to game balance, in a selffound league there's absolutely no reason for those values to stay the same - I'd even go as far as to say it actively inhibits participation and aggravates people. There's just not enough ways to reliably get what you need if you don't get it naturally, and that is a problem in self-found leagues.

This is (slightly) changing with some of the act 4 info we've been teased, so who knows if that will stay the same, but specifically with regards to currency, there are more than a couple currency orbs that need their values tweaking as is - and a selffound league exacerbates those problems a thousand-fold.

Those issues MUST be addressed before a permanent self-found league or mode could even be considered.

perhaps thats why GGG ran this league, for the sole purpose of collecting data....?

Tinfoil hat?

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DarkMantle wrote:

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TheAnuhart wrote:

I couldn't get past the 2nd use of 'anti-social'.

Look up that term, TC.
Edit your OP, then maybe it will be worth the read.

That was harsh. Do you have any suggestion for a different term I could use to make your reading of my humble thread worthy?

Thanks for your time.