Auto making a remove-only stash tab a regular tab needs to be stopped

I should add, I do not think it would be unfair if the rules for sharing bought tabs between leagues changed for future leagues. I do think there is something wrong with changing the rules post-hoc, for previous leagues.

A possibility (for future leagues) is to sell slightly cheaper tabs that are usable for that league only, or double the price for all current leagues. In this way, players are paying for exactly the number of tabs they receive, and then the only remove only tabs we'd need to worry about are the four starter tabs. At that point, because expectations have changed, it would not be unfair to implement an expiration timer to those future remove only tabs.

The important thing with this suggestion (assuming it does resolve the issues present with current tab behavior, and I think it is obvious that the "as is" have some serious long-term problems), is that we know what we're paying for up front and do not have to worry about the rules changing on us after we've already made decisions based upon those rules.

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Hodari wrote:

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BoltThrower87 wrote:

People deserve to know what they are paying for. It should be in the description if this is the route they're going to take. Announcing it on the forum doesn't cut it. And if I'm being honest, I won't be buying any until the description is changed.

Agreed. I think they have the right to do something about people trying to use remove-only tabs as free storage and if this is how they want to do it, it's fine with me. But at the very least, they need to make it clear to anyone buying them that this is the case.

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BoltThrower87 wrote:

I don't feel like arguing over tabs being P2W. It is beating a dead horse, and I could care less. But if you are going to say that saving time or gaining efficiency isn't P2W at some level, then you should also be able to explain why an EXP boost would not be P2W in PoE. It only saves you time/efficiency.

You can do everything without it (and the same goes for even buying the effect of an orb, like the regrets.. anyone can farm them in enough time, it is just less efficient, going by the line of reasoning I've seen defending tabs). Like I said, I don't care. I have no problems with the tabs being MTXs, but at the same time I can admit that they are at some level P2W.

I think the key here is that most people don't object so much to the idea that "people can buy something to save them time" itself. The problem is that once the company starts selling things like xp boosters or actual usable items, there is a huge incentive for them to adjust the game balance based around those facts. This in turn means that anyone NOT buying xp boosters will take significantly longer than they "should" to level and anyone not buying items will have much worse drop rates(if they can obtain comparable items at all). THAT is what people object to.

Stash tabs are about the only thing that gives any in-game advantage and even then, the game is at least marginally playable just with the 4 default tabs. I would argue that compared to most similar games, you actually have a relatively large amount of storage just from those 4. Buying 1 or 2 extra tab bundles will probably be enough for most people and even then, the cost is pretty minimal and far less than the cost of buying a normal game.

Yeah, I removed that from my post as to not deter from my real feedback. I misread something in the thread which caused me to start thinking about that. I personally don't mind the tabs.

What's strange about this is that it doesn't make much sense as an item server space conservation measure. I have loads of RO tabs, and this change doesn't affect me in the slightest (provided we get 100% GGG confirmation that this doesn't convert race tabs) because I don't play Standard/HC. I won't be acquiring any new items in those leagues, so whether or not my RO tabs get converted doesn't matter. So there's no reason for me to sort my accumulated stuff.

And people who only play Standard aren't going to have anything incoming from other leagues anyway. So this only has an impact on people who are introduced to the game via leagues and opt to stay in Standard, and then buy new tabs. Or people who play a week race during a challenge league and then buy tabs within that four month period.

So if they really need to cut back on RO cold storage, this doesn't seem like the most effective way of going about it.

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Uvne wrote:

So if they really need to cut back on RO cold storage, this doesn't seem like the most effective way of going about it.

It also doesnt make sense, since GGG allows and even suggests to use mule accounts and mule characters. How much database space is saved, if I transfer RO tab content on mule chars & mule accounts? It probably gets even worse.

So the real reason behind this forced and not-so-ethical change is...??

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morbo wrote:

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Uvne wrote:

So if they really need to cut back on RO cold storage, this doesn't seem like the most effective way of going about it.

It also doesnt make sense, since GGG allows and even suggests to use mule accounts and mule characters. How much database space is saved, if I transfer RO tab content on mule chars & mule accounts? It probably gets even worse.

So the real reason behind this forced and not-so-ethical change is...??

[Removed by Support]

will be done anyway since ggg needs the money from stashtab sales which is at least 50% of their income

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Hodari wrote:

Stash tabs are about the only thing that gives any in-game advantage and even then, the game is at least marginally playable just with the 4 default tabs. I would argue that compared to most similar games, you actually have a relatively large amount of storage just from those 4. Buying 1 or 2 extra tab bundles will probably be enough for most people and even then, the cost is pretty minimal and far less than the cost of buying a normal game.

 I have 2 problems with the change GGG has made when buying new stash tabs:

1. I currently have 30 full use tabs and 67 remove-only tabs in Standard League. Most of these are over half full with items. Before the change, if I bought a 6 tab bundle on sale I would get 6 new and empty stash tabs added to my total tabs for me to use as I please. So in Standard League I'm running out of R-G-B space to store my Red, Green, and Blue gems in. No problem, I have 6 new empty tabs so I could allocate 3 of them for R2, G2, and B2 and play any standard build and put newly acquired gems in the second gem tab. Now after the change, out of my 67 read-only tabs from the end of previous 4 month leagues, if I buy a 6 tab bundle I will get 6 out of my 67 remove only tabs converted to full use tabs. Which 6? Who knows, it's another RNG gamble. Will it be a red, green, or blue gem tab from Ambush League that is already maxed out and thus I have no new free space and just wasted 150 points to get 6 full tabs? Will it be one of my 3rd chest or weapon tabs (I allocated 3 tabs each to store chest and weapons into so Chest1 and Chest2 will be mostly full by the end of the league and Chest3 will only have a few 50+ level items) or not? It's another RNG crap shoot. So my purchase of 6 tabs so I can play a build in Standard League may not give me any new empty storage space to save gems and other items.

2. GGG has made PoE to be a long term re-playable arpg. Re-playability through build diversity is the quintessential key to long term playing of PoE. GGG gives us 7 character classes and a massive passive skill tree for us to use any way we want to. This is great and wonderful for making dozens of builds. Ok, so I play an evasion ranger arrowsmith build now and get a great sword drop. What do I do with it, I keep it and stash is for later use on a melee build. My point here is that over time (20 months for me) I've accumulated many items I'm saving for new builds. As GGG releases new skill gems I can then create a new build around it and then an item I've squirreled away may work perfectly with that new skill. So it is of vital importance for GGG to allow us to keep our gear long term in remove-only tabs if they want us to be playing PoE long term. Before the change that is exactly how the stash worked and all it great. Now, after this change, GGG is indirectly telling me that I can't keep my gear long term to use one day on a new build after a new skill gem is released. That I must dump a lot of my old gear because I don't have and stash space for storing new items. That buying a 6 pack of new tabs will not give me 6 empty tabs to use but instead give me 6 of my existing remove-only tabs converted to full use tabs and as such could be 100% full already as I don't get to pick which tabs are converted. With 30 premium tabs I'm getting that many read-only tabs worth of items dumped to Standard League every 4 month league end. That's fantastic and now I currently have 67 RO tabs. Wonderful! I have a long time of PoE playing enjoyment ahead of me with new builds. Exactly what they were hoping for when the founders envisioned PoE.
 But now I can't buy new storage space and at the same time keep my hard earned gear for future builds. With this seemingly simple and harmless change so that players who don't want to have to move a full tabs worth of RO items over to a newly purchased tab manually get the whole tab automatically converted has destroyed that. GGG is assuming that everyone is buying new stash space for this purpose. With 30 stash tabs becoming standard RO tabs every month I would be needing to buy 30 new tabs at the end of each and every 4 month league! But it's worse then that as I would now have 60 tabs in the next 4 month league and its end will get those dumped to standard as RO tabs. You can see the major problem this change is causing. And what for? So some players don't have to manually move a RO tabs worth of gear to a full use tab. That's insane.

BTW: If you started out with regular stash tabs and then decided to upgrade to premium tabs, you don't get to pick which tabs are upgraded. So last year I was up to 24 regular tabs and decided one day, it would be nice if had my gems in Red, Green, and Blue tabs, and have an Orbs tab, a Rings tab, and a Flask tab for easy ID. So I bought some when on sale. What happened next? I got 6 randomly chosen tabs converted to premium. Ok, so now I have 6 gear and weapon tabs made premium. But I want my gems, rings, and flasks to be labeled and colored for easy quick access. I don't care about my weapons and other gear. Yep, I had to manually move everything around to get the items I wanted in those 6 premium tabs. That's a major effort to do as I have to swap items between tabs which usually involves a temporary 3rd tab to shuffle all around.
 Obviously GGG wants us all to have premium tabs and then this problem goes away and then only buy premium tabs when expanding stash space. That's what ultimately happened for me. I'm happy with 30 premium tabs presently.

 So why is GGG now changing the rules just to satisfy a few that complain that they have to manually move a lot of gear from an RO tab to a full use tab (I don't know what technical problem there was that Chris also stated as the reason for this change)? Any plans we have on long term storage of gear for the long term playing of PoE as GGG wants us to be doing in PoE is now being thrown out the window. I suddenly feel like I have been shot in the foot here. I repeat to GGG, I currently have 67 RO tabs in Standard League and I would like to think that I'll still be playing PoE this time next year. I would like to be able to buy new stash space as desired for Standard League and have them immediately available as new and empty storage space. I certainly don't need to expand on my 4 month league stash space.

 So the permanent leagues are increasing in RO tabs. No problem. I'll decide when I have too much junk and consolidate and get rid of some RO tabs. It has to be my choice and my choice alone if GGG wants me to play PoE long term and buy bling and stash tabs. But the current change has ruined and killed any reason to buy new stash space as it won't be added as new empty tabs as it should be and was until the recent change.

Can anyone verify if this effects the race reward tabs? I don't really care about normal stash tabs getting converted but if this sends my race rewards to standard I will never buy a stash tab again.

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DJMASTAJEFF wrote:

Can anyone verify if this effects the race reward tabs? I don't really care about normal stash tabs getting converted but if this sends my race rewards to standard I will never buy a stash tab again.

Haven't heard any official confirmation on it, but a few people have said that it does not affect race tabs. As far as I know, those tabs are treated completely differently since they're not bound to one specific league, so they should be safe here. A dev response would be nice on this one and I agree that if they ARE affected, that would make this a far bigger issue.

Add me to the list of those who no longer can buy (but would've) any more tabs, due to the massive cost of converting all read-only tabs to regular tabs before getting any empty ones. Hoping this change gets reversed.